#Official Defence Thread

[Vee]

Things are looking grim for our ASC.

Contrast this......before the election ...
What the (now) Coalition Defence Minister, David Johnston promised SA BEFORE the election (May 8, 2013).

I want to confirm on behalf of the Coalition that we are firstly committed to submarines for the Royal Australian Navy, they are a very important and vital and special capability as a deterrent. Secondly, I want to confirm that the 12 submarines as set out in the 2009 Defence White Paper and then again in last Friday’s Defence White Paper are what the Coalition accepts and will deliver.

We will deliver those submarines from right here at ASC in South Australia.

Now why ASC? Right across Australia there is only one place that has all of the expertise that’s necessary to complete one of the most complex, difficult and costly capital works projects that Australian can undertake. It’s ASC here in Adelaide. We believe that all of the expertise that is necessary for that project is here.

http://www.senatorjohnston.com.au/Media ... oject.aspx

What do the State or SA-based Federal Liberals have to say now?

Where is their much needed support and championing of our ASC submarine building program, in the face of current rumours of the $20 billion contract going to Japan.
Massive job losses, multiplier effect in reverse, huge hit to our SA economy!!!

ALP Shadow Minister, Mark Butler bemoans the lack of support from SA Libs in this press release (29 August 2014)

SOUTH AUSTRALIAN LIBERALS ARE SINKING OUR SUBMARINES

South Australian Liberals continue to fail their home state with Jamie Briggs sneering on Adelaide radio this morning that the Government shouldn’t make a submarine decision “based on parochial needs”.

....

South Australian Liberals are willing to put billions of dollars in investment and thousands of shipbuilding jobs in the Port Adelaide electorate at risk because of petty party politics.

Before the election, Defence Minister David Johnston stood out the front of ASC in Osborne and promised: ‘We will deliver those submarines from right here at ASC in South Australia. The Coalition today is committed to building 12 new submarines here in Adelaide’.

But now Tony Abbott and Minister Johnston are breaking that promise and South Australian Liberals are cheering them on. Not one single South Australian Liberal is holding Tony Abbott to his pre-election promise.

http://markbutler.alp.org.au/news/2014/ ... submarines

Mr X weighs in ...

Submarine policy: Nick Xenophon urges PM to 'end the uncertainty' over SA project

Thousands of jobs would be lost if the Federal Government announced Australian submarines would be made in Japan, independent senator Nick Xenophon has said.

Ongoing uncertainty over the Federal Government's policy for its ageing fleet of Collins Class submarines has flared again.
It follows a visit of Japanese submarine experts to Adelaide last month.

The Coalition is due to reveal its policy for replacing the submarines next year, with speculation Defence Minister David Johnston will reveal a significant downgrade in plans to build the 12 submarines in Adelaide.

Senator Xenophon has called on the Prime Minister to "come clean".
"There must be an end to the uncertainty," he said.
"The fact that it's not being denied is a real concern.

"We can't plan as a state unless we know what the Federal Government is doing or not doing with the subs, whether there are alternative projects in the pipeline.

"But the important thing is to avoid the so-called valley of death, which is literally thousands of jobs which are at stake... until we know that there is an alternative out there, if that's what the Government is planning to do."

ABC News:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-08/x ... ct/5727028

The secret visit to the ASC by the Japanese delegation adds to the angst that the deal is done and SA will get a few scraps ...

[Vee]

It's looking even more grim for our ASC and SA manufacturing after this insult....

Tony Abbott warns of 'substandard' submarines if Australian-made prioritised

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has refused to commit to allowing Australian companies to publicly compete to build the next generation of submarines, saying the last thing the navy wants "is a substandard submarine".

Amid signs the government is preparing to purchase vessels made overseas, Mr Abbott has said that the first priority of Defence has to be that equipment is "world class" and "at a competitive price".

SMH:
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... 16v9x.html

[Waewick]

I don't understand why it is a insult. What he is saying is they need the best, he didn't say that can't be made here, just that they needed to make sure it is.

[Pistol]

If anyone is interested, the first of the AWDs/DDGs is going to be 'floated off' on the 23 May at about 10:00.

[Wayno]

If anyone is interested, the first of the AWDs/DDGs is going to be 'floated off' on the 23 May at about 10:00.

cool!

[rev]

I might go down for a look, will there be some sort of public event or viewing areas? I've been down before to see them as they've been in dry dock being assembled..pretty imposing sight.


Regarding the submarines, has it dawned on anyone yet(doesn't appear to have dawned on the media..but then..), that besides the obvious fact that Abbott lied through his teeth about building 12 submarines in Adelaide, that it was never going to happen because of the trade deal with Japan? Similarly with the car industry..killed off because of free trade deals. They underestimated the reaction to telling people our submarines would be built by the Japanese. The "tender" involving the Germans and others is just for show, shame the German's and French are so oblivious(I guess due to us being on the other side of the planet?), otherwise I'm sure they'd say it publicly as why would they waste their time with the process. The French I believe have also opened up an office in Australia, or was it the Swedish firm that did that.

[Wayno]

This may get people thinking in the right direction. Selling ASC to German Thyssen Krupp would be a win-win:

From new.com.au

Thyssen Krupp says it wants to buy Adelaide’s ASC as part of submarine construction project

GERMANY’S biggest ship builder would buy government-owned submarine firm ASC and massively expand the facility as part of its plan to build the navy’s future submarines and surface warships in Australia.

This would finally realise the 15-year-old plan of the former Howard Government to turn Port Adelaide into a national shipbuilding centre of excellence.

Building a case

During a tour this week of its shipyard in Kiel, where nine submarines are in various stages of construction or upgrading, executives from Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS) said a team would travel to Australia next month to examine options for building ships in Adelaide and at other yards.

TKMS is one of three bidders engaged in a competitive evaluation process for the $20 billion job to supply a replacement for the navy’s Collins Class bats which are due to retire from 2026.

It will also bid for the navy’s future frigate and Pacific Patrol Boats in a move that could create thousands of jobs and cement naval shipbuilding in Australia for decades.

Japan also has confirmed its intention to compete with Germany and France for the controversial submarine project.

Chief cabinet secretary Yoshihide Suga told Japanese media on Monday that Japan would join the competitive evaluation process.

Ownership issue

Mr Konker said the ASC ownership issue has to be tackled as part of the “huge” project.

“It is an issue of price and risk. We have top priority on this.

“We would consider to buy ASC,” Mr Konker said.

The executives said it was “definitely possible” to expand ASC’s Port Adelaide facility to do both jobs.

The German firm also raised the possibility of exporting Australian built Type 216 boats to other countries such as Canada.

It has built 160 submarines for 20 navies since 1960.

Any Australian build would involve yards and firms from around the nation contributing elements to the final product that would be assembled in Adelaide.

It would create and preserve thousands of manufacturing jobs.

Expansion plans

Chairman of TKMS Australia Dr John White, who managed Australia’s most successful shipbuilding project with the German designed Anzac Frigates, said the firm would be keen to buy and expand ASC if it was for sale.

“If not we will establish our own facilities at Techport [Port Adelaide] and work with other facilities to build both Sea 1000 [subs] and Sea 5000 [future frigate],” Dr White said.

The submarine project is Australia’s biggest ever defence contract and will deliver between eight and 12 submarines for up to $20 billion.

TKMS Australia chief executive and former submarine commander Philip Stanford said finding enough skilled workers would not be a problem.

“We don’t see human resources as an issue. The workforce will appear and there are a lot of technical people losing their jobs,” he said.

Mr Stanford said that 85 per cent of the systems proposed for the 4000-tonne German Type 216 boat were already operating at sea on the company’s Type 214 submarines.

“It is a proven approach and a proven system.”

Lobbying versus capabilities

TKMS says it is conducting an open and transparent campaign to win the work compared to a secretive proposal from the Japanese government that refuses to release any details of its submarine and a publicity shy French bid to convert a nuclear submarine from government owned builder DCNS.

Senior executive and board member of TKMS Torsten Konker described Japan’s bid — the one Pirme Minister Tony Abbott has already declared his favourite — as a “white elephant”.

He said its performance could not be accurately judged due to the secrecy surrounding it.

TKMS says it is also developing new technologies such as powerful lightweight lithium ion batteries and air independent propulsion systems that would enable its submarines to remain submerged without fresh air for several weeks.

This is one of the Japanese submarine’s key selling points.

[rev]

Selling it would be as big a mistake as building the subs in Japan.
Submarines are a strategic asset, especially so for a country like Australia. Selling that capability is stupid. Monumentally stupid.

If they included the British and/or Americans, sure that would be acceptable. Especially the British, since Australia and the UK are more then just allies and partners.
And our defence is heavily dependant on the Americans as it is, our forces have been modernized to be compatible with theirs in case anyone didn't notice.

It's hardly a win-win when Thyssen Krupp are a corrupt firm.
Hardly a win-win when the profits go overseas.
Hardly a win-win when a foreign firm knows one of your most strategic defence assets inside and out.

[phenom]

I think we're long past the point where the 'optimal' outcome for Australia (including SA) is on the cards.

As has been reported previously, Abbott made some sort of deal (handshake or otherwise) with Abe and of course it has now become a massive political hot potato... presumably Abbott had anticipated having more political capital to burn at this stage of the cycle to push this through.

We appear to have Defence officials who either know nothing about their so called area of expertise (witness answers at Senate committee hearing) or of course they have been placed in a political no mans land where they must push a line they know not to be true (or do so by convenient omission of fact).

Anything that rescues a semblance of defence industry for SA and Australia will be the best outcome now possible, notwithstanding the astroturfers on sites like AdelaideNow who think 'unions' and 'Jay' are the issue here and not blind ideology in ignorance of disastrous cost-overruns in virtually ALL of our defence acquisitions - regardless of source country.

I am heartened by these serious moves by German and French groups and hopefully the big names involved might also encourage the Abbott Government to rethink its 'anything but Adelaide' approach on this issue.

[rev]

I think we're long past the point where the 'optimal' outcome for Australia (including SA) is on the cards.

As has been reported previously, Abbott made some sort of deal (handshake or otherwise) with Abe and of course it has now become a massive political hot potato... presumably Abbott had anticipated having more political capital to burn at this stage of the cycle to push this through.

We appear to have Defence officials who either know nothing about their so called area of expertise (witness answers at Senate committee hearing) or of course they have been placed in a political no mans land where they must push a line they know not to be true (or do so by convenient omission of fact).

Anything that rescues a semblance of defence industry for SA and Australia will be the best outcome now possible, notwithstanding the astroturfers on sites like AdelaideNow who think 'unions' and 'Jay' are the issue here and not blind ideology in ignorance of disastrous cost-overruns in virtually ALL of our defence acquisitions - regardless of source country.

I am heartened by these serious moves by German and French groups and hopefully the big names involved might also encourage the Abbott Government to rethink its 'anything but Adelaide' approach on this issue.

Cost over-runs and delays are part and parcel of defence procurements. It is not unique to Australia.

[Pistol]

There is no doubting the high quality of product that ASC has produced with the first DDG.

However, ASC had a golden opportunity to cement their position as the future naval builder of Australian RAN ships and boats.
However, they are running over budget and over schedule with the AWD Project and their history with the subs is not good.
What they are lacking is real ship building expertise and that is what the likes of TKMS would bring to the table.

It has to happen for there to be a future ship building capability in this country.

[rev]

There is no doubting the high quality of product that ASC has produced with the first DDG.

However, ASC had a golden opportunity to cement their position as the future naval builder of Australian RAN ships and boats.
However, they are running over budget and over schedule with the AWD Project and their history with the subs is not good.
What they are lacking is real ship building expertise and that is what the likes of TKMS would bring to the table.

It has to happen for there to be a future ship building capability in this country.

No, it doesn't have to happen.
That's a rather simplistic and laymens way of looking at it.
You haven't examined why they are over budget, why they are behind schedule.
Could be a management issue, could be an organizational issue, could be a union issue, could be that these are complex vessels that the work force there has no experience with.

HOWEVER, ASC now has experience in building, maintaining, and retrofitting submarines, as well as building surface vessels.

They now have that experience and expertise.

Rather then selling off a national strategic asset, what the government should do is bring in people to oversee the operation who have extensive knowledge.
Rather then just relying on Australians and training up Australians, they should bring in Americans and British who've worked on similar projects in the UK and USA.

Selling it to TKMS, a corrupt corporation that takes part in bribing government officials and ministers so it can be awarded multi-billion dollar/euro contracts, shouldn't even be an option being talked about let alone considered. They bribed the Greek government years ago to win the submarine contract there, for four Type214AIP submarines. The first submarine, built in Germany, was faulty and defective. TKMS for a time refused to acknowledge it.

And finally, once you've sold such an asset to a company like TKMS, when they have no use for ASC any more, they will sell it to someone else.
You all but lose control of your strategic asset that is vital to your national defence.
Of course the Australian government could block further sales, but they'll be taken to the Internatioanl Courts, thanks to us being part of the global economy and being so gung-ho over globalization.

[zippySA]

Surely the main issue here is the fact that we are a small nation - and we are not going to have a massive volume of ongoing naval build - we simply cannot justify this. I agree, maintaining capability and a core ship-building industry is strategically important - but I also agree with the model proposed of creating an alliance with others who have the experience and knowledge and know-how to build these vessels, ensuring they transfer the skills and knowledge for us to be able to sustain them ongoing locally.
This approach leads to the best organisations (assuming Government doesn't balls up the procurement - possibly a big assumption) delivering each type of vessel - and we all win long term.

Here's a thought - again, assuming the Nuclear Royal Commission says "yes" to a nuclear industry - why don't we go buy nuclear subs off the shelf from our main defence partner in the US. We even have the space to build new yards in remote areas for risk mitigation in event of something going wrong.

Just a thought - but for the range Australia needs out of submarines - nuclear is clearly the best solution.

[rev]

Surely the main issue here is the fact that we are a small nation - and we are not going to have a massive volume of ongoing naval build - we simply cannot justify this. I agree, maintaining capability and a core ship-building industry is strategically important - but I also agree with the model proposed of creating an alliance with others who have the experience and knowledge and know-how to build these vessels, ensuring they transfer the skills and knowledge for us to be able to sustain them ongoing locally.
This approach leads to the best organisations (assuming Government doesn't balls up the procurement - possibly a big assumption) delivering each type of vessel - and we all win long term.

Here's a thought - again, assuming the Nuclear Royal Commission says "yes" to a nuclear industry - why don't we go buy nuclear subs off the shelf from our main defence partner in the US. We even have the space to build new yards in remote areas for risk mitigation in event of something going wrong.

Just a thought - but for the range Australia needs out of submarines - nuclear is clearly the best solution.

Using the arguments used for the demise of the industry, ie small volumes, limited exports, does not make sense being applied to the defence industry.
The defence industry is vital for a nations continuation, for it's survival, when things go pear shaped. And things will go pear shaped again. The world is becoming more hostile and unstable, not peaceful. The wider Asia region in particular. We can't rely excluslively on allies to be there in our time of need. We need to be able to pull our own weight as well.

If we are to let the local naval shipbuilding industry die in the ass because Abbott wants to buy foreign submarines, then we may as well buy American or British submarines. Why? Because 1) they'll share their secrets with us, and 2) their forces and our forces are already able to operate together, it's how they've been designed/built. We already operate a lot of similar equipment as well due to this. The British are more then just allies to Australia.

But, why let the naval ship building industry go now? We've spent hundreds of millions establishing it. Millions spent on training people.

We can build submarines and we can build large surface warships.
The issue isn't how many we will keep building. That is a pathetic excuse used by politicians to justidy their stupidity and attempts to send Australian jobs overseas.

Between the time the destroyers are finished and the time the submarines are due to begin, there's no building work. Only maintenace work.
However, in that time, the government can push forward the ANZAC frigate replacement program, and award it to a consortium of Australian shipyards here in Adelaide, Newscastle and Thomastown. IF they gave a toss about Australian industry and jobs. Which they've proven they don't already.

New patrol boats have been, can be, and should be built by Austal in Western Australia for the Navy and Border protection force.
Austal also builds for the US Navy and for civilian customers around the world though. So maybe that's something ASC should look into to diversify a little.

FYI, other ships, support ships, were awarded to other countries instead of local shipyards. Our governments do not give a shit about us, our jobs, or our industries.
It's not just a matter of national security but it's a political issue as well. We've been sold out by politicians long ago, with all this free trade bullshit, globalization, WTO nonsense etc. And when the TPP goes through, we will be even worse off.

[Pistol]

See you at tomorrow's launch Rev