Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

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Aidan
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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#16 Post by Aidan » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:58 am

stumpjumper wrote: Do you think it's important to have all the bus and rail termini together?
Important, no. Advantageous, yes - but not if it adversely affects operations.

The advantage comes from making the terminals easier to get to and from. But the proportion of long distance passengers changing to other long distance modes are likely to be very small - though still much bigger than the ratio of long distance passengers to total passengers.

Have you been to Brisbane? The long distance buses go from Roma Street station, as do the trains. It's on their busway route, and there are many buses along Roma Street itself. But there are also many routes that don't go there. It's not worth diverting every route to cater to a small minority.

Now regarding Adelaide's local transport network, it's not as ad hoc as you might think. All local bus routes serve either Adelaide Station, Grenfell Street or Victoria Square. My planned underground railway serves Adelaide Station, Grenfell Street, Victoria Square and the interstate train terminal at Keswick, in addition to directly linking the northern and southern suburbs and enabling the regeneration of the SW section of the City. Admittedly some of the buses would be on the other side of Victoria Square from the station, but that shouldn't be a problem, and there's even the option of constructing underground passageways.

So my planned underground railway (unlike the others suggested here and on the poll thread) would directly connect with everything except the airport and the bus station - and the latter could be moved if demand justifies it.
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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#17 Post by AtD » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:26 am

I don't understand the obsession with providing Keswick Terminal with the oodles of connecting routes. Comparisons to Southern Cross, Sydney Central or Roma Street are inappropriate. Doesn't Keswick only get one or two trains per day? South Australia doesn't have enough regional centres, in terms of size or quantity, to justify a country network to the scale found interstate. Our second largest town, Mt. Gambier, is the 50th largest town in the country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ci ... population

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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#18 Post by Shuz » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:16 am

I was having a think the other day; in response to a vision I submitted about moving Parliament House and the Railway Station... why do that, when we could just build a new railway station on the Government House lands. That way, Adelaide is served by a newer, larger and easily expandable facility, just as SX is to Melbourne. The existing railway station could become a boutique department store or something more fanciful than a casino!

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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#19 Post by AtD » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:18 pm

You might want to think about the cost/benefit of that one, Shuz:

1: Relocate train station
2: ???
3: Profit!

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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#20 Post by Aidan » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:23 pm

AtD wrote:I don't understand the obsession with providing Keswick Terminal with the oodles of connecting routes. Comparisons to Southern Cross, Sydney Central or Roma Street are inappropriate. Doesn't Keswick only get one or two trains per day?
Yes, but they're very long trains! It doesn't need oodles of connecting routes, but it needs something better than what it currently has.

But there's more to Keswick than just the terminal - it's an increasingly important employment area, and further into the future it's a suitable site for a skyscraper cluster.
Shuz wrote:I was having a think the other day; in response to a vision I submitted about moving Parliament House and the Railway Station... why do that, when we could just build a new railway station on the Government House lands. That way, Adelaide is served by a newer, larger and easily expandable facility, just as SX is to Melbourne. The existing railway station could become a boutique department store or something more fanciful than a casino!
But why would you want the suburban trains to continue to terminate on the edge of the CBD?
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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#21 Post by AtD » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:35 pm

Aidan wrote:Yes, but they're very long trains! It doesn't need oodles of connecting routes, but it needs something better than what it currently has.

But there's more to Keswick than just the terminal - it's an increasingly important employment area, and further into the future it's a suitable site for a skyscraper cluster.
Keswick Railway Station (the suburban one) could do with better frequencies and a bit of a face lift. The office cluster is already served by this station.

I'd like to see the govt lease/sell the 'air rights' above Keswick Station and the other side of the intersection, and use the revenue to make Keswick into a proper commuter station. I'd imagine the real estate would be quite valuable considering how busy that intersection is.

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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#22 Post by Shuz » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:57 pm

Aidan wrote:
AtD wrote:I don't understand the obsession with providing Keswick Terminal with the oodles of connecting routes. Comparisons to Southern Cross, Sydney Central or Roma Street are inappropriate. Doesn't Keswick only get one or two trains per day?
Yes, but they're very long trains! It doesn't need oodles of connecting routes, but it needs something better than what it currently has.

But there's more to Keswick than just the terminal - it's an increasingly important employment area, and further into the future it's a suitable site for a skyscraper cluster.
Shuz wrote:I was having a think the other day; in response to a vision I submitted about moving Parliament House and the Railway Station... why do that, when we could just build a new railway station on the Government House lands. That way, Adelaide is served by a newer, larger and easily expandable facility, just as SX is to Melbourne. The existing railway station could become a boutique department store or something more fanciful than a casino!
But why would you want the suburban trains to continue to terminate on the edge of the CBD?
Actually if anything, the new station would be closer, much closer to the university precinct, and the eastern part of the CBD where the 'core' cluster is. More patronage can only derive as a result.

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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#23 Post by Aidan » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:12 pm

Shuz wrote:
Aidan wrote:
Shuz wrote:I was having a think the other day; in response to a vision I submitted about moving Parliament House and the Railway Station... why do that, when we could just build a new railway station on the Government House lands. That way, Adelaide is served by a newer, larger and easily expandable facility, just as SX is to Melbourne. The existing railway station could become a boutique department store or something more fanciful than a casino!
But why would you want the suburban trains to continue to terminate on the edge of the CBD?
Actually if anything, the new station would be closer, much closer to the university precinct, and the eastern part of the CBD where the 'core' cluster is. More patronage can only derive as a result.
So what? It would still be a single station on the edge of the CBD. Surely it makes more sense to go right into, and indeed right through, the CBD and have multiple stations?
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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#24 Post by stumpjumper » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:43 pm

Shuz, wouldn't the trains keep the Governor awake? :lol:

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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#25 Post by Shuz » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:10 pm

We'd be a republic by then.

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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#26 Post by Will » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:53 pm

Shuz wrote:We'd be a republic by then.
Even if we became a republic there is a high possibility that we would retain the post of governor, so you may as well consider this in your plans. :wink:

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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#27 Post by mattblack » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:37 am

Personally, in regards to a single underground line through the centre of the city, id rather see an entire wetern suburbs tram network established for a hell of a lot less money. Im guessing that some will think this to be a ridiculous notion.

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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#28 Post by Aidan » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:21 am

mattblack wrote:Personally, in regards to a single underground line through the centre of the city, id rather see an entire wetern suburbs tram network established for a hell of a lot less money. Im guessing that some will think this to be a ridiculous notion.
Much as I'd like to see trams return to the western suburbs, they wouldn't bring anywhere near the benefits of a single underground line through the centre of the City. Unless the tram network includes some faster routes than those currently served by buses, journey time benefits will be very small, whereas a tunnel would slash journey times for many passengers - particularly on the Noarlunga Line. This also has important congestion implications, as the roads of the inner southern suburbs are busier (and likely to be more congested) than those of the western suburbs.
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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#29 Post by mattblack » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:47 am

whereas a tunnel would slash journey times for many passengers - particularly on the Noarlunga Line.
What, by 5 - 10 mins for most passangers) maybe 15mins at absolute most for a small minority of passangers. Wouldnt exactally call this 'slashing'. Have you got numbers to confirm your argument that you can post.
This also has important congestion implications, as the roads of the inner southern suburbs are busier (and likely to be more congested) than those of the western suburbs.
[/quote]

To be honest, Adelaide doesnt have major congestion issues at the present time. Wait till you are sitting in 10 - 15 km queues before complaining. Yes I do relise we need to plan ahead but surely not by 30 years, there are alot more pressing issues at the mo :)

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Re: Adelaide CBD and Underground Railways

#30 Post by Aidan » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:20 pm

mattblack wrote:
whereas a tunnel would slash journey times for many passengers - particularly on the Noarlunga Line.
What, by 5 - 10 mins for most passangers) maybe 15mins at absolute most for a small minority of passangers. Wouldnt exactally call this 'slashing'.
OK, maybe slashing is too strong a word - but how much time would western suburbs trams save? It's unlikely to be as much as five minutes for anyone - certainly less than ten.
Have you got numbers to confirm your argument that you can post.
Is it really worth finding numbers for this? It seems obvious to me that there would be more journeys in from the southern suburbs, simply because they're so much bigger than the western suburbs.

This also has important congestion implications, as the roads of the inner southern suburbs are busier (and likely to be more congested) than those of the western suburbs.
To be honest, Adelaide doesnt have major congestion issues at the present time. Wait till you are sitting in 10 - 15 km queues before complaining. Yes I do relise we need to plan ahead but surely not by 30 years, there are alot more pressing issues at the mo :)
Don't we want to avoid having 10km queues? Our congestion may not be major by world standards, but is still a significant cost, and still avoidable.

If we do nothing, the congestion will get worse. And there is likely to be more of it in the inner southern suburbs than the western suburbs, for two reasons: firstly, the sea is about 10km from the City, so queues that long are unlikely. Secondly, the western suburbs are growing by densification alone. The southern suburbs are doing that too, but also growing outwards, with new areas constantly being developed.
Just build it wrote:Bye Union Hall. I'll see you in another life, when we are both cats.

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