Poll: Should Adelaide have an underground railway

[Aidan]

i like normans approach of following the main road arteries - presumably helps avoid clashes with deep building foundations...

But why would you want to restrict it to running under main roads when you can avoid clashes with deep building foundations by planning a route in advance?

Precisely. It would also be easy and cheap to implement, as cut-and-cover could be used.

Cut and cover has its advantages, but it isn't necessarily cheap or easy. Unlike tunnelling, It would require pipes and cables to be relocated. There are water pipes (blue), sewers (magenta) and storm drains (red)...

...and in addition, there are gas mains, electricity cables and phone cables.

North Terrace, Wakefield Street and Grote Street are all wide boulevards that would make implementing an underground easy. The westerly exit also provides an oppertunity to create a city loop, making best use of limited railcar resources.

???
How is putting the trains onto a big loop a good use of railcar resources?

Adelaide Station can also be returned to serve interstate trains and diesel services,

The platforms are far too short for interstate trains.

while Underground lines use a station located next to the railway station just underneath the current tram stop. More on that later.

A sensible location... but you've still got only two stations in the CBD

[Somebody]

Man, this is getting dribbly. We all know that loops are moronic - all of us should have read Riccardo's blog by now, and have seen how bad the Melbourne one is (where jk1237 counted Hitachis ). Quit it, sports :wank:

I voted no for the general idea of an underground railway too, or more specifically "Maybe eventually - but we shouldn't let it affect current planning decisions".

The main lines should be Gawler - Belair (Express stoping at only major stops), Gawler - Belair (All stations)

Err, I don't think the Belair Line warrants as many trains as the Gawler line (let alone can the Belair Line handle them). If anything, it should be Noarlunga <-> Gawler and Belair <-> Outer Harbor.

Me agree - that would be a shithouse pairing, a major line with a large catchment paired with a fairly insignificant line that serves the Blackwood area. Gawler - Noarlunga ain't a bad pairing though.

[Ho Really]

Here's that graphic I did with the Adelaide Gaol curve. I didn't include the straight bits of line but you can visualise that. There are probably other options I didn't include here as I did this quickly yesterday afternoon after I took Aidan's suggestion of the 200 metre radius of the curves.

Maps typically exaggerate street widths, so it's best to use satellite view instead. This also gives you some indication of exactly what the tunnels would be going under.

For sure, they are only indicative. In 2001 I did some research on Rome's new metro line Linea C (see: Rome Metro) and was lucky enough to view their satellite images and plans that showed station platforms, stairwells, air vents, etc. So I understand what you are saying.

Cheers

[Ho Really]

i like normans approach of following the main road arteries - presumably helps avoid clashes with deep building foundations...

But why would you want to restrict it to running under main roads when you can avoid clashes with deep building foundations by planning a route in advance?

You could do either. Personally I think in the CBD core it would be best to keep the underground under the streets, mainly the wider ones. In the residential and light commercial areas (which are the majority) of the square mile you could easily plan in advance.

Precisely. It would also be easy and cheap to implement, as cut-and-cover could be used.

Cut and cover has its advantages, but it isn't necessarily cheap or easy. Unlike tunnelling, It would require pipes and cables to be relocated. There are water pipes, sewers and storm drains...and in addition, there are gas mains, electricity cables and phone cables.

Cut and cover probably best left to the parklands sections and anywhere where there's no conflict with the above. It would work out easier.

North Terrace, Wakefield Street and Grote Street are all wide boulevards that would make implementing an underground easy. The westerly exit also provides an oppertunity to create a city loop, making best use of limited railcar resources.

???
How is putting the trains onto a big loop a good use of railcar resources?

A loop isn't really necessary since that can be dealt with by trams. Best if the line goes through the city and then turn south to Keswick.

Adelaide Station can also be returned to serve interstate trains and diesel services,

The platforms are far too short for interstate trains.

Agreed. Adelaide Central won't see interstate trains. Redevelop the whole Keswick area into a TOD and include a suburban station in a redeveloped Interstate Passenger Terminal (Keswick). Bring life to an otherwise dead place.

Cheers

[Norman]

Adelaide Central can support interstate trains, with a few modifications. The platforms would have to be extended to the Morphett Street Bridge (or even a bit further), and platforms have to be moved to allow shunting. But other than that, it can be done.

[Aidan]

Adelaide Central can support interstate trains, with a few modifications. The platforms would have to be extended to the Morphett Street Bridge (or even a bit further), and platforms have to be moved to allow shunting. But other than that, it can be done.

A bit further??? They'd have to stretch all the way to the Train Control Centre, and possibly further than that!

[Somebody]

We need the paper towels now, right here.

Nothing wrong with having the Ghan & Indian Pacific go from Keswick. And why are they so important - they only run once a week now. Better things to spend money on.

[Norman]

Nothing wrong with having the Ghan & Indian Pacific go from Keswick. And why are they so important - they only run once a week now. Better things to spend money on.

I'm not just talking about the GSR trains, I'm also talking about possible country trains to Whyalla/Port Augusta, Barossa Valley and Mount Gambier. And I was in no way implying that these changes should be put in place now, maybe once trains are actually made to be a more efficient form of transport than what they currently are.

[Somebody]

I'm not just talking about the GSR trains, I'm also talking about possible country trains to Whyalla/Port Augusta,

Not going to happen, Harvey. Other than GSR's existing service.

Barossa Valley

Would these trains be so long that they couldn't fit in the platforms at Adelaide Station Wilfy, I mean Harvey? I woulda thought a single poxbox would be enough for the loadings.

and Mount Gambier.

Why oh why does this dumb proposal keep coming back up? :wank:

And one important point - why does any kind of non-urban passenger service get stuck in the one "country passenger trains" basket? What the hell does a service that goes 80km to Angaston have in common with a Sydney to Perth train? You're comparing them here.

[Will409]

I do say, I like your plan Norman, I think it could be done since you do have several access points meaning flexible operation and as others have said, you don't have to deal with building foundations and other services to the same extent as you would with any other routes. Not only that but using Keswick 'dip' (as it is known in railway circles) also helps. As an aside, the broad gauge section of Adelaide Gaol Loop looks like being reinstated in the next few months (for BG Belair line work trains to access from the north) so that may also help with further train pathing options through the underground system. The tramline through the CBD isn't exactly made redundant either since it cuts right though the middle along King William Street (well der...) and links at both Adelaide Railway Station and Victoria Square so it can still serve everything in the middle as well as towards South Terrace.

A quick historical note: Adelaide DID previously have an underground line running east of Adelaide Railway Station. The little known 'Jubilee Line' was built sometime in the 1870s to serve the former Adelaide show grounds which were located near the site of the Army Barracks and the University. The line was closed during the 1910s (I think in the 1915-1918 period). When the current Adelaide Railway Station was built between 1924 and 1928, the tunnel was sealed off permanently from the rest of the rail network. The tunnel itself survived otherwise intact until the late 1960s when the Festival Centre was built and King William Road regraded. The roof of the tunnel was breached and subsequently filled in.

[AtD]

What's the Jubilee in the 1870s? South Australia wouldn't be 50 until 1886.

[monotonehell]

What's the Jubilee in the 1870s? South Australia wouldn't be 50 until 1886.

The Adelaide Jubilee Exhibition was held in 1887, to celebrate 50 years of settlement in SA. I guess they started cutting the line before that to finish on time. This wasn't really an underground, it was more of a rail line down a cutting. There used to be an excellent website regarding its history, but the link is dead.

EDIT: Oh look it's on wikipedia now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_Exhibition_Railway

[Norman]

And one important point - why does any kind of non-urban passenger service get stuck in the one "country passenger trains" basket? What the hell does a service that goes 80km to Angaston have in common with a Sydney to Perth train? You're comparing them here.

In that case, why do all the country and interstate trains leave the Central station's upper platforms in Sydney? Why do all country and interstate trains leave Southern Cross?

[Xaragmata]

A quick historical note: Adelaide DID previously have an underground line running east of Adelaide Railway Station. The little known 'Jubilee Line' was built sometime in the 1870s to serve the former Adelaide show grounds which were located near the site of the Army Barracks and the University. The line was closed during the 1910s (I think in the 1915-1918 period). When the current Adelaide Railway Station was built between 1924 and 1928, the tunnel was sealed off permanently from the rest of the rail network. The tunnel itself survived otherwise intact until the late 1960s when the Festival Centre was built and King William Road regraded. The roof of the tunnel was breached and subsequently filled in.

There was a proposal in the 1970s to open the tunnel under King William Road as a pedestrian underpass for the Festival
Centre. Some testing was carried out, but the idea was abandoned, possibly due to the roof being damaged. I can recall
seeing the test excavations on each side of KWR, but little else.

[Adamo]

adelaide does not even have the substantial public transport commuters to make use of an underground system.. it just dosnt work.

Plus, what about our rotting railways, lack of tram and bus routes.

stop thinking new york dreams... sigh waste time creating new bus routes. sorry about the attitude, but a subway in adelaide? you could build a lot more tram line in city lopes instead of wasting millions on a few underground stations that add no street ambiance.