#VISION Liberal's railyard plan: new stadium & entertainment

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AtD
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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#76 Post by AtD » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:31 pm

JamesXander wrote:I guess the thing to come out of this is

1. The Casino wants to move, and they want a new CBD premises. This opens up a massive opportunity for Adelaide to have a major redevelopement somewhere
2. The stadium, we now have three major stadiums in AAMI, AO & Hindmarsh. With potentially the World Cup coming here. Funding for all stadiums is unviable
3. The redevelopement of the Torrens is inevitable, it is the most unutilised place in Adelaide


What frustrates me the most, is that the hospital is really going to affect all of the above from potentially happening. Why why why are they building it on that plot of land. Why?! :wallbash:
1. False
2. Yes it will be interesting to see what happens to AAMI.
3. Big call. Remember it's competing with the rest of the parklands and every square except for the north western corner of Hindmarsh....

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#77 Post by paul » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:43 pm

waz94 wrote:
crawf wrote:I guess the libs aren't affraid of height, at least thats something


Geez some of the members on here could do much a better job than the libs, I still support the idea of redeveloping the RAH on-site and keeping railway yards for a entertainment/leisure precinct though for heaven sakes come up with a decent plan not something done up on Sim City.

The plan for West Lakes, Hindmarsh, Gepps Cross & Keswick are way over the top.
DID ANYONE ACTUALLY READ OR LISTEN TO THE LIBS WHEN THEY PROPOSED THIS RE-DEVELOPMENT. THEY MENTIONED NUMEROUS TIMES (AS WELL AS BEING REPORTED IN PAPER) THAT THE RENDERS BEING SHOWN ARE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT IT COULD LOOK LIKE AND NOT WHAT IT WILL EXACTLY LOOK LIKE. PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM COMPLAINING ABOUT THE SHAPE AND COLOURS OF THE BUILDINGS ARE EMBARRASSING THEMSELVES.
A very valid point. And one based on fact too ( how refreshing!). It's quite curious how proposals made by the libs are subjected to an entirely different form of scrutiny. I find the use of a forum established to discuss a particular development proposal to make thinly disguised political attacks rather self indulgent.

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#78 Post by Howie » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:50 pm

AtD wrote:
JamesXander wrote:I guess the thing to come out of this is

1. The Casino wants to move, and they want a new CBD premises. This opens up a massive opportunity for Adelaide to have a major redevelopement somewhere

1. False
They're quoted in the article saying that the discussions were conceptual and still committed to the railway station site, but they've clearly indicated that an expansion is necessary for a number of years now.

Planned expansion totalling $55m was shelved as the most expensive item on that list was an exorbitant $30m underground carpark. Mind you Skycity only paid $180m in 2000 for Adelaide Casino. A chandelier here, and a marble floor there in the scheme of things isn't a whole lot when you've got your eyes on the big prize. So would Skycity's fastest growing and most profitable casino want to be in a purpose built complex? You've only got to read their quarterly reports to get your answer to that question.

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#79 Post by Hooligan » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:55 pm

So Skycity wants more room to fit more pokies in?


No thanks

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#80 Post by Pistol » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:28 pm

Adelaide Casino only utilises 1/3 of the railway building. It has room to expand.

What it doesn't have is a hotel and that is the only reason Adelaide Casino will move.
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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#81 Post by Bulldozer » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:58 am

Prince George wrote:Thriving, successful cities are bustling because of the successes of the various economies within it. Retail economies, manufacturing economies, tech economies, creative economies, cultural economies, financial economies, knowledge economies, these are the elements of the cities that we want to emulate. When they are healthy, they create wealth and attract people; wealth and people help attract amenities, which can drive further activity in those economies, and virtuous cycles can result.

The backwaters are places that have failed to understand this, they confuse cause with effect. They build the trappings of the successful city, rather than those economies that caused them. They see Google in the Valley, Microsoft & Boeing in Seattle, Motorola in Chicago, Ford in Detroit and ask "How could I get them to come here?"; what they should rather ask is "How could I get something like that to happen here?" Healthy economies create opportunities like that, the backwater throws money at trying to attract them.
As someone else pointed out, the government previously built the Convention Centre... that was one aspect of the ASER development in the 1980's that saw the end of interstate rail at Adelaide Station, but also included the establishment of the Adelaide Casino and Hyatt. All are undoubtedly successes. As mentioned the Convention Centre was so successful that it was expanded to win back business from other states that copied the concept. Similarly, casinos in the other states followed Adelaide's concept of targeting high rollers and ended up stealing a lot of business, hence the lowering of standards to broaden the customer base.

Before ASER, the Playford government drove the development of SA from an agrarian economy into what it is today by driving industrial development. Water pipelines and roads were built, power companies nationalised into ETSA to drive electrification of the state and provide cheap energy for business. The Cooper Basin was hooked up to Adelaide for cheap gas. The Housing Trust built tens of thousands of affordable homes to house migrants that would provide cheap labour to attract industry, which flocked. Adelaide was the 3rd biggest city in the country and everyone else was playing catchup through imitation.

Obviously things today haven't turned out how they were envisioned, what with the loss of manufacturing due to globalisation and social malaise in Housing Trust areas, but it worked for a great deal of time and for better or worse, built the city you live in today. The point is that government can, has and does play an important role in catalysing growth.

The concept isn't just a sports stadium. There have been suggestions previously of a modern art gallery, investigator science centre, relocated entertainment centre, etc. By incorporating a variety of facilities that the city lacks today and centralising existing venues you have a much higher chance of there always being something on in the area that will attract people, other than those that will come for the regular footy games and concerts. Additionally you should also consider what things will be like in the future with a higher population... what if Adelaide finally wakes up to high-rise city living and the CBD and inner-city population doubles or triples over ten or twenty years? The government wants to pack another half a million into greater Adelaide, with 70% as in-fill development if I remember correctly.

<rant>Seriously, most people in Adelaide have NFI just how far behind it has fallen as a city. I'm moving back in a couple of weeks for a few months before I'm off overseas and I've got to say I'm not really looking forward to it. People from interstate seriously aren't joking when they say it's like going back in time 20 years. I was down there a few weeks ago visiting family and the depression starts as soon as you step out of the airport terminal into the retarded carpark. Work on the Anzac Hwy underpass had started when I left just under 4 years ago and it STILL wasn't finished! Just what the f... is going on there? You'd all shit your pants at the amount of transport stuff that's been built around Brisbane in that time, and that's not even touching on all the other stuff. It's a serious pity that Adelaide is going backwards, because it has so much potential and a development like what the Liberals are proposing is desperately needed to inject some life and vitality into the city's heart.</rant>

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#82 Post by Will » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:19 am

Bulldozer wrote:[

<rant>Seriously, most people in Adelaide have NFI just how far behind it has fallen as a city. I'm moving back in a couple of weeks for a few months before I'm off overseas and I've got to say I'm not really looking forward to it. People from interstate seriously aren't joking when they say it's like going back in time 20 years. I was down there a few weeks ago visiting family and the depression starts as soon as you step out of the airport terminal into the retarded carpark. Work on the Anzac Hwy underpass had started when I left just under 4 years ago and it STILL wasn't finished! Just what the f... is going on there? You'd all shit your pants at the amount of transport stuff that's been built around Brisbane in that time, and that's not even touching on all the other stuff. It's a serious pity that Adelaide is going backwards, because it has so much potential and a development like what the Liberals are proposing is desperately needed to inject some life and vitality into the city's heart.</rant>
I've got a bit of a rant too. I find the attitude of people such as yourself depressing. I have said on numerous occassions that there are 2 types of people holding Adelaide back. Those that do not want it to change and those who do not think it can change. And from your rant you appear to be in the second category. You make it seem that the Anzac HWY underpass as the only infreastructure project that has occured, convineintly forgetting other projects such as the Bakewell Bridge underpass, tram overpass, tram-line extension, Port River expressway, northern expressway... I recognise that Brisbane has had much more development than us, but guess what, I'm sure that if our mining boom had started in the 60's like it did for QLD, we'd have built much more things. Likewise to say that the Anazc HWY underpass took 4 years to build is just proof of the contempt you have for this city. In reality work began in September 2007 and traffic was flowing less than 2 years later. Pretty good considering that the road was never closed during construction. Likewise to say that the depression sets in when you see the carpark at Adelaide airport is further proof. People like you only see the negatives in Adelaide and only see the positives interstate and overseas. Why not mention that Adelaide has a better airport than Brisbane, why focus on the carpark? Not to mention the fact that the carpark is only temporary and plans are in place to build something more permanent. Seriously, take off the poo-coloured glasses.

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#83 Post by rhino » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:27 am

Will wrote:Why not mention that Adelaide has a better airport than Brisbane, why focus on the carpark?
Got to agree with this! I was in Brisbane airport last week, for the first time, and was astounded by how tired and dirty it was.
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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#84 Post by waz94 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:04 pm

Bulldozer wrote: <rant>Seriously, most people in Adelaide have NFI just how far behind it has fallen as a city. I'm moving back in a couple of weeks for a few months before I'm off overseas and I've got to say I'm not really looking forward to it. People from interstate seriously aren't joking when they say it's like going back in time 20 years. I was down there a few weeks ago visiting family and the depression starts as soon as you step out of the airport terminal into the retarded carpark. Work on the Anzac Hwy underpass had started when I left just under 4 years ago and it STILL wasn't finished! Just what the f... is going on there? You'd all shit your pants at the amount of transport stuff that's been built around Brisbane in that time, and that's not even touching on all the other stuff. It's a serious pity that Adelaide is going backwards, because it has so much potential and a development like what the Liberals are proposing is desperately needed to inject some life and vitality into the city's heart.</rant>
Bulldozer, you obvioulsy havent travelled down the Gateway recently in Brisbane. I lived nearby there in 1995 and they were proposing what they have only just started to build 14 years later. Its a cluster travelling from the airport down south at the moment and doesnt look like getting better anytime in the near future.

So you can argue it in two ways, that the redevelopment = positive ecomonic activity or be negative and say that the slow progress = a slow and unreactive goverment that is stifling progress.

Just depends what your slant is and how you want to justify your argument.

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#85 Post by Mpol » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:09 pm

Adelaide Airport is being upgraded with new carparks and stuff of the such? WOOT!

I agree with Will. Adelaide is a great city to live in. It is changing, though quite slowly, it is making great progress, compared to say 10 even 5 years ago. The new stadium would be great, and if they can do up a lot of what is around that, it hsould be a great new little hub.

Adelaide has its draw backs but it has a lot of potencial. I think this next decade will see A LOT of changes comes our way.

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#86 Post by adam73837 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:25 pm

Mpol wrote:...I think this next decade will see A LOT of changes comes our way.
Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right. But I'll believe it when I see it.
I take back many of the things I said before 2010; particularly my anti-Rann rants. While I still maintain some of said opinions, I feel I could have been less arrogant. I also apologise to people I offended; while knowing I can't fully take much back. :)

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#87 Post by rhino » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:47 pm

adam73837 wrote: I hope you're right. But I'll believe it when I see it.
How can you say that, considering the enormous ammount of change that has occured and/or is underway over the last 5 years? When was the last 5 years of this much activity?
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Re: #VISION Liberal's railyard plan: new stadium & entertainment

#88 Post by Mpol » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:05 pm

rhino, you took the words straight out of my mouth!

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#89 Post by Benski81 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:22 pm

Will wrote:
Bulldozer wrote:[

<rant>Seriously, most people in Adelaide have NFI just how far behind it has fallen as a city. I'm moving back in a couple of weeks for a few months before I'm off overseas and I've got to say I'm not really looking forward to it. People from interstate seriously aren't joking when they say it's like going back in time 20 years. I was down there a few weeks ago visiting family and the depression starts as soon as you step out of the airport terminal into the retarded carpark. Work on the Anzac Hwy underpass had started when I left just under 4 years ago and it STILL wasn't finished! Just what the f... is going on there? You'd all shit your pants at the amount of transport stuff that's been built around Brisbane in that time, and that's not even touching on all the other stuff. It's a serious pity that Adelaide is going backwards, because it has so much potential and a development like what the Liberals are proposing is desperately needed to inject some life and vitality into the city's heart.</rant>
I've got a bit of a rant too. I find the attitude of people such as yourself depressing. I have said on numerous occassions that there are 2 types of people holding Adelaide back. Those that do not want it to change and those who do not think it can change. And from your rant you appear to be in the second category. You make it seem that the Anzac HWY underpass as the only infreastructure project that has occured, convineintly forgetting other projects such as the Bakewell Bridge underpass, tram overpass, tram-line extension, Port River expressway, northern expressway... I recognise that Brisbane has had much more development than us, but guess what, I'm sure that if our mining boom had started in the 60's like it did for QLD, we'd have built much more things. Likewise to say that the Anazc HWY underpass took 4 years to build is just proof of the contempt you have for this city. In reality work began in September 2007 and traffic was flowing less than 2 years later. Pretty good considering that the road was never closed during construction. Likewise to say that the depression sets in when you see the carpark at Adelaide airport is further proof. People like you only see the negatives in Adelaide and only see the positives interstate and overseas. Why not mention that Adelaide has a better airport than Brisbane, why focus on the carpark? Not to mention the fact that the carpark is only temporary and plans are in place to build something more permanent. Seriously, take off the poo-coloured glasses.
Agreed, I used to rag on adelaide all the time and after spending a year in Sydney for work I've discovered a new found appreciation for Adelaide. I would chose Adelaide over Sydney to live (and melbourne over both).

As a side point and not really appropriate for this thread but I'll say it anyway, I got an email from a friend in London who was watching some BBC energy special thing where there was a panel of "experts" who were saying that Adelaide was the next "Dubai." Now let me be clear I'm not saying I think this, I'm saying they said this.

Apparently they were saying this because of the amount of uranium we have in SA and how this will feature heavily in meeting the energy needs of countries in the future due to climate change and will therefore bring huge $$$ into the state. So sure Brisvegas has had it's boom but SA is just starting to have one now. To be fair lets have this discussion 10 years from now and then we can compare apples with apples.

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Re: SA Liberal Party unveils its plan for Adelaide railyards

#90 Post by Omicron » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:27 pm

AtD wrote:Thank you Prince George, you've given me the motivation to say why I don't like the proposal. My biggest concern is a planned entertainment prescient placed in a vast corner of the parkland will turn out to be sterile and boring. It might just be me but I'm of the opinion that a more planned an area is, the more boring it appears, especially when the buildings themselves are planned by the same people as the streets.

You cannot plan a vibrant city. A vibrant city evolves on its own. The less planning the better.

All of Australia's most popular destinations are streets, where there is a mixture of smaller developments and smaller companies all built, opened and operated independently of each other. There is a rich mixture. Even in Adelaide this is true.

Can anyone think of a successful entertainment district that was planned all in one go? The only ones I can think of:
- Crown Melbourne has basically everything this plan suggests in a tiny fraction of the land. It's density allows it to have bustling and busy areas, and even then the southern side is totally void of human activity.
- Homebush is more like the showgrounds than an entertainment precinct. It was built in and around the existing suburbs and showgrounds and does feel rather sterile.

If the purpose of having a CBD stadium is to inject sports crowds into Hindley St, etc, then I don't understand the need for all the other towers and paraphernalia. Shouldn't they be inside the city grid adding to the density and thus street activity? It looks like they're isolated by the tyranny of distance and surrounded by empty parks so the area will feel empty. Is this a park or an entertainment precinct?

I also don't like it because it's adding to supply when low demand is our problem. It's addressing the wrong end of the problem, as Prince George suggested.

My suggestions are:
- Keep everything as close to North Tce as possible so it will contribute to activity and demand in the city grid. Complement the city, don't compete with it.
- Bring the stadium closer to the train station, for the same reason.
- Get rid of those towers. If they can actually be supported economically, let the private sector do it in the CBD so it may contribute to the density.
- Maybe even subdivide the area into smaller blocks and let the private sector have its way with it.
*eHug*

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