Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

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Ho Really
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Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#1 Post by Ho Really » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:45 pm

Third Melbourne airport mooted

THE Victorian government says it's open to the idea of a third Melbourne airport, noting the drive from the city's southeast to Tullamarine can take longer than a flight to Sydney.

The case for a third airport is laid out in a discussion paper by a committee advising Planning Minister Matthew Guy on options for Melbourne up to 2050.

An airport in Melbourne's southeast would serve one-third of the state's population, including 300,000 Gippsland residents.

Mr Guy says a third Melbourne airport is top of building giant Leighton Holdings' infrastructure wish-list and is supported by local councils.

He said it would allow people in the region to get an airport without having to travel across the city to Tullamarine.

"If it can be achieved, then we should at least have the debate, and the government is saying let's have the debate," he told reporters on Friday.

"Remember, it takes longer to get from Armadale (in the city's inner southeast) to Melbourne Airport in peak hour than it takes to fly from Melbourne to Sydney."

Opposition planning spokesman Brian Tee said a third airport should not be a priority.

"The new airport is a thought bubble," he told reporters.

"A third airport is an issue that is decades away.

"In the meantime, we've got real issues that are affecting Victorian families today."

The discussion paper said a southeastern airport would have good road connections and serve an area with a population larger than South Australia's.

"With continuing major population growth, Gippsland and Melbourne's southeast would benefit from improved international tourism and trade connections that would come with the development of a new airport."

By 2050, Melbourne's population is predicted to reach between 5.6 and 6.4 million.

Affordable housing needed to be created to cope with the growing population, the paper said.

"The cost of dwelling in the middle suburbs of Melbourne needs to be reduced if we are to have any prospect of providing an opportunity to a wider range of the population to live in these areas."

Herald Sun
I would rather see that [predicted] population growth decentralised. That also goes for Sydney. Perhaps send them all to Albury-Wodonga and then build a decent airport there.

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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#2 Post by Aidan » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:41 pm

These are separate issues. If you want decentralization then VFTs are needed. But meanwhile Melbourne's growing huge, and there's quite a strong case for an airport to be constructed north of WesternPort Bay - which is a long way from both existing airports and from the preferred VFT route.
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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#3 Post by claybro » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:05 pm

Ho Really wrote:I would rather see that [predicted] population growth decentralised. That also goes for Sydney. Perhaps send them all to Albury-Wodonga and then build a decent airport there.

Cheers
I agree with this. Too often we plan to expand our mega cities as if it is inevitable, and then try to deal with the resulting infastructure and lifetyle issues that come with mega cities. The Federal Government should be encouraging a doubling of the size of Canberra and Albury and possible Newcastle to prevent Sydney and Melbourne sprawling even more. The cost of the extra Sydney and Mlbourne airports would pay fot the VFT. And Canberra already has a decent airport.

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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#4 Post by Aidan » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:15 pm

claybro wrote:
Ho Really wrote:I would rather see that [predicted] population growth decentralised. That also goes for Sydney. Perhaps send them all to Albury-Wodonga and then build a decent airport there.
I agree with this. Too often we plan to expand our mega cities as if it is inevitable, and then try to deal with the resulting infastructure and lifetyle issues that come with mega cities. The Federal Government should be encouraging a doubling of the size of Canberra and Albury and possible Newcastle to prevent Sydney and Melbourne sprawling even more. The cost of the extra Sydney and Mlbourne airports would pay fot the VFT. And Canberra already has a decent airport.
The cost of the extra Sydney and Melbourne airports wouldn't even pay for the Sydney to Canberra section of the VFT. And the VFT wouldn't remove the need for an East Melbourne airport (unless the VFT's routed through the LaTrobe valley and Gippsland, which is not what's being proposed at the moment) because existing airports are too inconvenient for places like Dandenong. As for Sydney, VFTs would delay the need for a new airport, but if predictions about Asian growth are correct, they won't remove it.

It isn't a binary sprawl v decentralization choice, it's about how much we want of each. If we want a lot more decentralization, VFTs are necessary. But they won't stop growth of Sydney and Melbourne, and nor should they.
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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#5 Post by Omicron » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:46 pm

VFT?

And not an altogether nonsensical idea, this. Imagine the current 6am red-eye flight if you lived out Frankston way - you'd have to leave before you had gone to bed the night before.

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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#6 Post by [Shuz] » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:03 am

Very Fast Train.

Same thing as HSR.

High Speed Rail.

Damned acronyms these days. INC.

In need of coffee.
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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#7 Post by PeFe » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:44 pm

Melbourne wants to open a 3rd airport? Why? Is this a new cottage industry to create more jobs? I mean New York has 3 airports, Paris has 3 airports.....get my drift, since when did Melbourne move into that league of cities?

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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#8 Post by claybro » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:21 pm

The problem with Australian cities is not the size of the population but the gegraphical size. ie the Melbourne and Sydney metro areas cover the same amount of territory as the likes of London and Paris despite having only a third of the population. The Eastern suburbs of Melbourne stretch some 70km to the east of CBD, and hold a population the size of Adelaide. Also, as Australia is very poorly serviced by rail, air travel domesticly is vital and Australia has some of the busiest domestic routes in the world, where as many journies out of say Paris to London are done by train. One only imagines the chaos in the air over Europe if their train system was third world like Australias. So we either continue on the American model and build airports more to link ever expanding metro areas OR we go to the European model of more but smaller cities, linked by HSR.

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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#9 Post by PeFe » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:54 am

Claybro wrote
The problem with Australian cities is not the size of the population but the gegraphical size. ie the Melbourne and Sydney metro areas cover the same amount of territory as the likes of London and Paris despite having only a third of the population. The Eastern suburbs of Melbourne stretch some 70km to the east of CBD, and hold a population the size of Adelaide. Also, as Australia is very poorly serviced by rail, air travel domesticly is vital and Australia has some of the busiest domestic routes in the world, where as many journies out of say Paris to London are done by train. One only imagines the chaos in the air over Europe if their train system was third world like Australias. So we either continue on the American model and build airports more to link ever expanding metro areas OR we go to the European model of more but smaller cities, linked by HSR.
Still don't know why Melbourne needs 3 airports.......1 would suffice.....build a rail link there or increase the bus connections to the train system, the 901 bus to Broadmeadows station runs only every 30 minutes I believe.
And Sydney has only 1 airport....and will do in the forseeable future. We live in a low population country between Antartica and Asia....the only "through" air traffic is to New Zealand.

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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#10 Post by Aidan » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:56 pm

PeFe wrote:Claybro wrote
The problem with Australian cities is not the size of the population but the gegraphical size. ie the Melbourne and Sydney metro areas cover the same amount of territory as the likes of London and Paris despite having only a third of the population. The Eastern suburbs of Melbourne stretch some 70km to the east of CBD, and hold a population the size of Adelaide. Also, as Australia is very poorly serviced by rail, air travel domesticly is vital and Australia has some of the busiest domestic routes in the world, where as many journies out of say Paris to London are done by train. One only imagines the chaos in the air over Europe if their train system was third world like Australias. So we either continue on the American model and build airports more to link ever expanding metro areas OR we go to the European model of more but smaller cities, linked by HSR.
When we get high speed rail it will result in some smaller cities expanding, but it won't stop the bigger cities also doing so. And increasing international aviation demand (particularly from China and Indonesia) will more than make up for any fall in domestic demand resulting from high speed rail.
Still don't know why Melbourne needs 3 airports.......
Because it's huge! It takes ages to get to the existing airports from beyond Dandenong.
1 would suffice.....
but for how long? And what would Melbourne gain from being airport capacity constrained?
build a rail link there or increase the bus connections to the train system, the 901 bus to Broadmeadows station runs only every 30 minutes I believe.
The frequency's the least of the problems! The buses don't quite reach the airport terminals, and there are no signs at the airport showing where they do go from. And when I caught a tram to Airport West in the pm peak, I discovered there were no buses direct to the airport at that time of day, no taxis, and no indication of how to get to the airport.
And Sydney has only 1 airport....and will do in the forseeable future.
Another big airport in Sydney may be decades off, but meanwhile the existing airport's not got much spare capacity, and Richmond will probably be developed into a proper airport before too long.
We live in a low population country between Antartica and Asia....the only "through" air traffic is to New Zealand.
Depends what you mean by “through” air traffic. Passengers from Adelaide to North America are likely to go through Sydney, for example.
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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#11 Post by claybro » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:18 pm

If a third airport is constructed in Melbournes outer east, the existing second airport at Avalon would get very little commercial use. (it is not used much even now). So the Victorian wank of gee Melbourne is so hugh we need three airports is a bit misleading. Just the location of the current second airport being at Avalon in the sparsely popultated South West that is the issue. So in effect, Melbourne would still be considered a city with 2 airports.
Also Aidan, Im a bit confused why you would travel to the airport via the Airport West tram, and then expect a conntection to the airport?Airport West is named for being West of Essendon Airort, not Tulla. A bit like catching a bus to West beach and then wondering why there is no regular connection to the ADL airport. And the SKYBUS travels straight from the city to the front of the terminal along the Tulla FWY. If passengers cant find their way from there, well....

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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#12 Post by Aidan » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:39 pm

claybro wrote:If a third airport is constructed in Melbournes outer east, the existing second airport at Avalon would get very little commercial use. (it is not used much even now). So the Victorian wank of gee Melbourne is so hugh we need three airports is a bit misleading. Just the location of the current second airport being at Avalon in the sparsely popultated South West that is the issue. So in effect, Melbourne would still be considered a city with 2 airports.
Except that the SW is also growing fast, and Avalon's going to get a train station.
Also Aidan, Im a bit confused why you would travel to the airport via the Airport West tram, and then expect a conntection to the airport?Airport West is named for being West of Essendon Airort, not Tulla. A bit like catching a bus to West beach and then wondering why there is no regular connection to the ADL airport. And the SKYBUS travels straight from the city to the front of the terminal along the Tulla FWY. If passengers cant find their way from there, well....
I had a Myki card, which I understood was not valid on Skybus. And I had seen a map showing a direct bus service between AW and Tulla. And I like trams, whereas I'm nowhere near so keen on freeways.
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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#13 Post by claybro » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:20 pm

Trams in Melbourne are great for intra inner suburban, but for the airport, the skybus really does an excellent service and relatively cheap and quick in comparison to taxi. The Tulla FWY, also is generally not too bad. As for the reason being given for the third airport requirement is the length of time it takes to travel from the SE suburbs to Tulla and not any iminent of problem with airspace capicity, I would have thought they would first invest in a rapid rail link to the airport rather than build a whole new airport.

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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#14 Post by Aidan » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:15 pm

claybro wrote:Trams in Melbourne are great for intra inner suburban, but for the airport, the skybus really does an excellent service and relatively cheap and quick in comparison to taxi. The Tulla FWY, also is generally not too bad.
If I were in a hurry then I would've caught the Skybus. If I were in a slight hurry then I'd've gone via Broadmeadows. But I had plenty of time. Admittedly it didn't seem like plenty of time when I was at AW with a flat phone battery and no sign of a taxi stand, but then a bus came and took me to Gladstone Park where the driver told me to cross the road to the bus stop on the other side. A minute after I'd crossed the road, a bus arrived and took me to the airport (albeit a very badly sited stop at the airport).

Melbourne's main problem isn't poor service provision, it's a lack of passenger information.
As for the reason being given for the third airport requirement is the length of time it takes to travel from the SE suburbs to Tulla and not any iminent of problem with airspace capicity, I would have thought they would first invest in a rapid rail link to the airport rather than build a whole new airport.
If that were the only reason then yes. But when you factor in the boost it would give to the local economy (IIRC Dandenong's got higher than average unemployment) and the surrounding country area, plus the objective of delaying construction of another Tulla runway for as long as possible, an airport out that way starts to make sense.
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Re: Vics discussing third Melbourne airport

#15 Post by claybro » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:39 pm

If only Adelaide had the same progressive mentality. Not to say Melbourne is not without some big problems, but I think it is entirely possible for a city of 1.2mil like Adelaide to have the same go ahead attitude of the 4mil city like Melbourne.Airport too far away/ too busy...lets just build a new one...Road too busy...lets just tunnel under the city and charge poeple to use it. Unfortunately for some reason we in Adelaide do not. Always the perennial problem of not enough money(or too lazy to find it). And the conservative voice here... You wanna build a tram line?.... but that might mean I cant park my car in King William street and walk to Rundle Mall...wanna build a freeway...OMG my morris minor does not go that fast....New fangled electric trains...well folks, one at a time please, otherwise it might bankrupt us all, and for that we have to close the whole system down for 6 months, just for safety mind you, because we dont know how to put electric in... Wanna build a grandstand in the park, oh heavens no, that might attract the wrong types to our park lands, anyway the park is for the rich folk in Rose Park,so lets squash it and spend 6 months putting up and pulling down a stand anyway, so hopefully they will get sick of it and move that horrid race to Elizabeth.The racecourse that was there....well we dont want horses either, or people, just lots of trees, only Eucalypt mind you , let the European trees die through lack of water, but make sure we but in irrigation for the eucalypts so they dont die.. A 50 storey building in the CBD....?, well planes might crach into it and residents in North Adelaide might see it, and it might cast a shadow over Burnside. Think I need to move to Melbourne...or Perth...or Brisbane...or Hobart...
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