Public transport priorities for Adelaide

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Eurostar
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Public transport priorities for Adelaide

#1 Post by Eurostar » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:10 am

I am starting to think that if all these upgrades on South Road are meant to be so trucks can get from a to b why are we trying to please commuters and spending more than we need to. Grade seperated roads is all that is needed either underneath or over the top of current South Road with simple entrance and exit points at major intersections. Imagine a road just for trucks whereby truck drivers can get from a to b just as far as a train can do so and without playing roulette with cars.

Then the existing South Road could have one bus lane and one car lane.

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#2 Post by Patrick_27 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:43 pm

Eurostar wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:10 am
I am starting to think that if all these upgrades on South Road are meant to be so trucks can get from a to b why are we trying to please commuters and spending more than we need to. Grade seperated roads is all that is needed either underneath or over the top of current South Road with simple entrance and exit points at major intersections. Imagine a road just for trucks whereby truck drivers can get from a to b just as far as a train can do so and without playing roulette with cars.

Then the existing South Road could have one bus lane and one car lane.
I'm sorry if this offends you but that is by far the stupidest idea I have ever heard...

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#3 Post by neoballmon » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:47 am

Driving down South Road at any time during the day, I would say 70%+ of vehicles are private use. So you want to push these 70% into one lane, buses, which south of Anzac is only a few 7xx routes, not too sure of routes beyond, so maybe 30 buses per hour at most, and a number of taxis in the other lane which will be majority empty, then a new 2 or 3 lane just for the 20-30% of commercial vehicles on the road? Again it would be quite empty.

5% in bus lane 25% over 2 grade separated lanes and 70% in one lane with traffic lights. Tonsley to Anzac Highway would surely take an hour at the quietest time of day..
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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#4 Post by Goodsy » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:04 am

neoballmon wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:47 am
Driving down South Road at any time during the day, I would say 70%+ of vehicles are private use. So you want to push these 70% into one lane, buses, which south of Anzac is only a few 7xx routes, not too sure of routes beyond, so maybe 30 buses per hour at most, and a number of taxis in the other lane which will be majority empty, then a new 2 or 3 lane just for the 20-30% of commercial vehicles on the road? Again it would be quite empty.

5% in bus lane 25% over 2 grade separated lanes and 70% in one lane with traffic lights. Tonsley to Anzac Highway would surely take an hour at the quietest time of day..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_d ... d_examples

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#5 Post by bits » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:58 am


I suppose people paid large amounts of money causes induced demand also.
Tv sales per capita in a third world country will be much smaller than in a first world country.

It is clear humans can survive on less tv, less food, less water if you limit their availability; induced demand clearly.

Just because you can reduce the general publics use of services by limiting their availability does not automatially equal some kind of improvement.
It may be that you destroyed the lifetyle of the users that no longer use the service.

Reduce South Road to one lane and I am sure less will use the road, but was that a better outcome for people?


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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#6 Post by Eurostar » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:06 pm

neoballmon wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:47 am
Driving down South Road at any time during the day, I would say 70%+ of vehicles are private use. So you want to push these 70% into one lane, buses, which south of Anzac is only a few 7xx routes, not too sure of routes beyond, so maybe 30 buses per hour at most, and a number of taxis in the other lane which will be majority empty, then a new 2 or 3 lane just for the 20-30% of commercial vehicles on the road? Again it would be quite empty.

5% in bus lane 25% over 2 grade separated lanes and 70% in one lane with traffic lights. Tonsley to Anzac Highway would surely take an hour at the quietest time of day..
Yes and many will choose to use public transport to avoid being in that traffic jam. Adelaide can't just rely on South Road as being the main North South route we need to consider upgrading other roads. Marion Road could be upgraded in many spots to remove some bottlenecks , the intersections of : Marion Road and Sturt Road could be grade separated, Marion Road/Daws Road, Marion Road/Cross Road and Marion/Anzac Highway.
Last edited by Eurostar on Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#7 Post by Norman » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:14 pm

The current structure of our city does not allow for a high public transport and low car use scenario. It will take decades to reshape Adelaide before we can start narrowing arterials.

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#8 Post by Waewick » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:28 pm

Norman wrote:The current structure of our city does not allow for a high public transport and low car use scenario. It will take decades to reshape Adelaide before we can start narrowing arterials.
I was thinking about this over the weekend.

It would be good if either side of politics tried to set a target of increasing public transport from 20% to say 25% over 10 years.

They might even go so far as to explain the benefits.

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#9 Post by adelaide transport » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:18 pm

Waewick wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:28 pm
Norman wrote:The current structure of our city does not allow for a high public transport and low car use scenario. It will take decades to reshape Adelaide before we can start narrowing arterials.
I was thinking about this over the weekend.

It would be good if either side of politics tried to set a target of increasing public transport from 20% to say 25% over 10 years.

They might even go so far as to explain the benefits.
We are struggling to get to 10% at the moment-just about the lowest in the Country. Unless there is a massive investment in Public Transport in the next few years and a massive reorganisation of the bus network(which is in DPTI's plan-has been for several years,but nothing has happened so far.) it is going to take a long time to get anywhere near 20%-in fact out PT patronage is currently not growing on bus(except O_Bahn) or rail!

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#10 Post by how good is he » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:23 pm

In say 10+ years if hybrid/electric cars become the norm and Uber or even driverless cars become prevalent will all this negate the argument for PT and encourage more car use (both environmentally & the need for car ownership) ?

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#11 Post by [Shuz] » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:22 am

how good is he wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:23 pm
In say 10+ years if hybrid/electric cars become the norm and Uber or even driverless cars become prevalent will all this negate the argument for PT and encourage more car use (both environmentally & the need for car ownership) ?
This is one of the biggest conundrums facing urban planners these days. There's a small, but growing number of people who are starting to question the new urban PT orthodoxy of the last 20 years; and that ironically, the emphasis should be on efficient road management which is tailored towards the ride-sharing and automated markets.
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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#12 Post by SBD » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:30 am

[Shuz] wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:22 am
how good is he wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:23 pm
In say 10+ years if hybrid/electric cars become the norm and Uber or even driverless cars become prevalent will all this negate the argument for PT and encourage more car use (both environmentally & the need for car ownership) ?
This is one of the biggest conundrums facing urban planners these days. There's a small, but growing number of people who are starting to question the new urban PT orthodoxy of the last 20 years; and that ironically, the emphasis should be on efficient road management which is tailored towards the ride-sharing and automated markets.
Taxi, Uber, and self-driving (non-privately-owned) car pools are all public transport. The most efficient (energy and space) way of moving a lot of people from one place to another place at the same time will still be a train, bus or tram. The question will continue to be how big is a "place" and whether enough people want to move from one of them to another at the same time. Most of us would be happy to use a bus now, if it was waiting at the end of the driveway when we wanted to leave home, and would take a direct (time-efficient) route to the building we are going to. A taxi/self-driving car fleet is the logical conclusion of that.

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#13 Post by Nort » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:26 am

how good is he wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:23 pm
In say 10+ years if hybrid/electric cars become the norm and Uber or even driverless cars become prevalent will all this negate the argument for PT and encourage more car use (both environmentally & the need for car ownership) ?
A self driving car still takes up the same amount of space on the road as a conventional car, which means problems when thousands are coming into the CBD at the same time. For a route where a handful of people use the bus? Yeah it will likely help (although there are big questions about if it can match cost for the end user) but for the busy bus routes and train lines it's still a much more efficient method of moving people.

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#14 Post by Waewick » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:06 am

adelaide transport wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:18 pm
Waewick wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:28 pm
Norman wrote:The current structure of our city does not allow for a high public transport and low car use scenario. It will take decades to reshape Adelaide before we can start narrowing arterials.
I was thinking about this over the weekend.

It would be good if either side of politics tried to set a target of increasing public transport from 20% to say 25% over 10 years.

They might even go so far as to explain the benefits.
We are struggling to get to 10% at the moment-just about the lowest in the Country. Unless there is a massive investment in Public Transport in the next few years and a massive reorganisation of the bus network(which is in DPTI's plan-has been for several years,but nothing has happened so far.) it is going to take a long time to get anywhere near 20%-in fact out PT patronage is currently not growing on bus(except O_Bahn) or rail!
really, I could have sworn I heard ours was at 20%.

I personally believe there will always be a place for PT that is done well, regardless of driverless cars. To me it is about getting the corridors right.

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Re: News & Discussion: South Road / North-South Corridor

#15 Post by ChillyPhilly » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:58 pm

I completely agree that we need to get more people on PT - it's a no-brainer.

As Norman said, Adelaide unfortunately can't really support efficient public transport systems akin to other cities around the world, even Sydney. The city is too big geographically. Had we stuck to a more compact urban form with a smaller footprint, then it would be possible. Urban sprawl in the 1950s onwards negated this once new homes and motor vehicles became affordable to those beyond the wealthy elite.

I've been thinking about the PT issue in Adelaide for years, ever since I was still a kid just over a decade ago. My thoughts in a nutshell are:

- Biggest of all, our public transport system is linear and built around an outdated idea. This outdated idea is that everyone travels from the suburbs to the city for work in 9-5 jobs. This is incorrect. Just 15% of all jobs in Adelaide are in the CBD, and many of these are outside traditional 9-5 hours.
- As a result, our PT layout follows this linear idea, with nearly all bus routes, all train lines and the tram line (soon lines) leading into/out of the CBD.
- Land uses have for decades been disrespectful to PT, and have not been integrated. The Integrated Transport and Land Use Plan is an attempt to fix that, but is largely a vision.
- Bus routes are a major offender to poor PT services: there is a lack of practical cross-city and inter-suburb travel options because of the above reason.
- On the other hand, the above issue of poor inter-suburb travel is not helped by suburbs in Adelaide's north and north-east, which are incredibly difficult to service given the car-centric design and layout and lack of walkability.
- There is a lack of interchangeability and easy mode change in certain areas, with railway stations in some areas effectively hidden from sight in backstreets. Unsurprisingly, these stations have lower patronage than more visible stations (e.g. West Croydon vs Woodville; Parafield Gardens vs Mawson Lakes).
- The PT system continues to pay the cost for severe underinvestment, especially in the 1980s and 1990s. Infrastructure was left to decay and investment was purely around essential maintenance. This has improved from around 2006 onwards: tramline extension, service improvements, electrification and extension of the Seaford line, new ticketing system, and so on.

Then there are some little nuances:
- Car-first road planning, with a lack of priority bus lanes and/or signals
- Poor reliability on well-patronised routes. This is even with some generous timetabling that allows for congestion and delays
- Poor frequency for numerous services, especially at night.
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