News & Discussion: Trams

[rev]

Well lets hope we get another tram line extension instead of an obahn extension.

[EBG]

Couldn't we have both as in Germany

[Aidan]

Germany no longer does that.

I don't think Grenfell Street would be at all well suited to trams, as there would be too many buses in the way. And even without centre platforms, we certainly don't want buses blocking the tram stops!

But rather than Grote and Wakefield, I think a tram loop should use Grote and Angas so we can have a proper tram interchange in Victoria Square. And using Frome Street instead of East Terrace would significantly increase its catchment (as well as allowing the Grand Prix track to be restored should we need it).

[metro]

A tram extension would be great, as would an Obahn extension. But the state govt should finish rail electrification first!

[rubberman]

Buses blocking the team stops Aidan?

The tramline down King Wm, North Terrace, and down to Port Road is underutilised. There's no reason (other than absurd centre island stops) why buses couldn't run along the tram tracks and take some load off thevother lanes in those streets.

[Aidan]

Buses blocking the team stops Aidan?

The tramline down King Wm, North Terrace, and down to Port Road is underutilised. There's no reason (other than absurd centre island stops) why buses couldn't run along the tram tracks and take some load off thevother lanes in those streets.

Have you forgotten how long the buses in Grenfell Street take to load? We should not inflict that problem on our trams!

Our tramline in the City is indeed underutilized, partly because the trams still don't run anywhere near frequently enough and partly because we only have one route using it at the moment. But obstructing the tram tracks with buses would not be an improvement.

[rev]

Buses blocking the team stops Aidan?

The tramline down King Wm, North Terrace, and down to Port Road is underutilised. There's no reason (other than absurd centre island stops) why buses couldn't run along the tram tracks and take some load off thevother lanes in those streets.

Some of you need to remember and never forget that this is Adelaide, not Germany.
Adelaide drivers cant even handle a bit of rain after a dry spell without multiple crashes all over the metro area. And you expect Adelaide to cope with buses and trams sharing a line?

A first step might be to advocate better and more extensive driver training.

Otherwise it will result in the same catastrophe we have on our roads at present with bikes and motor vehicles trying to share the same limited space divided up only by some white painted lines on the road that nobody gives a shit about when it suits them.


This government needs to grow a set already.
Forget these bit by bit plans and just announce a whole damn tram network in the CBD and inner suburbs, and start by building the CBD loops first and then extending out into the inner suburbs.
Enough pussy footing around. Who gives a damn if some self interest minority groups are offended or pissed off. Do we actually have real politicians anymore? Do your damn jobs and isolate the fools and clowns in society who hold the rest of the state back with their selfishness.

[rubberman]

Aidan,

Have a look at the youtube clip I posted a few posts further back.trams and buses working an intense service.

It is done elsewhere, so statements that it can't be done are null and void.

[crawf]

This government needs to stop wasting valuable resources on plan after plan, and actually commit to one plan and finish it. Case in point, train electrification. Once the train network is fully electrified and improved, then look at building a inner-city tram network, train city loop etc.

If you add up all the tens of millions of dollars that has been spent on this countless studies, marketing and masterplans. It could potentially pay off the whole Gawler line electrification, with extra trains.

[ml69]

Hey I love trams as much as other people on this forum, but I want to throw a left-field thought out there.

Given our state's financial position, it could be decades before the WESTlink and EASTlink tram lines are built to Henley Beach and up The Parade, which would most likely cost billions to build in any case.

As a cost-saving compromise, wouldn't it be just as effective to have a dedicated bus lane going from Henley Beach connecting to the existing Currie/Grenfell St bus lanes, then the dedicated bus lane continues up the Parade? This bus lane would use the same space as a dedicated tramline and cause the same inconvenience to road traffic, so no difference there.

The bus lane surface could be painted in that red colour frequently used to identify a public transport lane. At traffic lights, the bus lane would have priority signaling to speed up travel.

What I envision would be different to a normal bus service is that stations would be spaced sbout 1km apart, like a normal trsm service, so the bus would provide a much higher speed service than regular buses and effectively become a semi-rapid transit service. Also, you would build high quality bus stops that resemble the existing tram stops. Hence you have all the benefits of a tram line at small fraction of the cost.

Thoughts?

[Aidan]

rubberman, that clip was timelapse so you may not have realised how much the buses delay the trams. They were mostly high floor trams and low floor buses so the difference in boarding times was reduced. And most importantly, it appers to be a suburbsn location, so fewer passengers were boarding at that stop.

Just because it can be done elsewhere doesn't mean it should be done here!

If we want to get the City traffic flowing again, the best thing to do would be to reinstate left turn lanes like the one they took out from North Terrace to Frome Road, and investigate opportunities for adding others. At the moment we appear to need one from North Terrace to King William Road, though the closure of Station Road will probably remove the need for that one.

[Aidan]

Hey I love trams as much as other people on this forum, but I want to throw a left-field thought out there.

Given our state's financial position, it could be decades before the WESTlink and EASTlink tram lines are built to Henley Beach and up The Parade, which would most likely cost billions to build in any case.

As a cost-saving compromise, wouldn't it be just as effective to have a dedicated bus lane going from Henley Beach connecting to the existing Currie/Grenfell St bus lanes, then the dedicated bus lane continues up the Parade? This bus lane would use the same space as a dedicated tramline and cause the same inconvenience to road traffic, so no difference there.

The bus lane surface could be painted in that red colour frequently used to identify a public transport lane. At traffic lights, the bus lane would have priority signaling to speed up travel.

What I envision would be different to a normal bus service is that stations would be spaced sbout 1km apart, like a normal trsm service, so the bus would provide a much higher speed service than regular buses and effectively become a semi-rapid transit service. Also, you would build high quality bus stops that resemble the existing tram stops. Hence you have all the benefits of a tram line at small fraction of the cost.

Thoughts?

I don't think they'd cost billions, but on that route I'd rate them as low priority as they wouldn't do anything the buses don't already do, and the existing bus priority measures are fairly good.

Having stops a kilometre apart makes sense on some longer routes, but wouldn't be woth it on short routes like that — frequent services are far more important. IIRC most stops on the Glenelg line are only half that far apart.

[ChillyPhilly]

While on the sub-topic of buses to serve PT needs while state finances recover enabling new tramways, what's the viability of a (perhaps simplified) Curitiba-style bus network?

[rubberman]

Aidan,

Lololol! You really need to get out a bit more.

First of all, that was Prague. The bus and tram stop dwell times there are a fraction of those in Adelaide. High floor trams included. A fraction.

Second of all, those buses with the X in their destination are Metro substitute buses. That's right, those buses are substituting for a five minute headway Five carriage metro! So, with 3 lines, and 590 million passengers per year, those buses are the equivalent of a 190 million per year system.

Those buses are not delaying the trams in any way. And with the long dwell times for trams in Adelaide, it would probably be the other way here.

Adelaide's trams and buses run well under par Aidan, well under. Wilful refusal to acknowledge that other people might have better ways of doing things is merely compounded by trying to ignore the evidence, not only of one's own eyes, but published statistics as well.

[Aidan]

rubberman,

I'm not refusing to acknowledge that otther people might have better ways of doing things. Of course they would — probably starting with running more frequent services to avoid the overcrowding that we've failed to properly address (particularly on the trams).

But it's just not true that the buses aren't delaying trams in any way in the video. They clearly are, and there appear to be buses delayed by trams as well.

And that's at a suburban stop, with stops long enough for a bus and a tram to use together. With our longer trams, that isn't a viable option at our City stops.

City stops will always have longer dwell times than suburban stops because more passengers use the stop. And it's normally only those getting on or off there that significantly affect the dwell times, not passengers staying on, though our trams are currently so crowded that the latter slow them too.

But if you think our tram dwell times are bad, have a look at our O-bahn buses in Grenfell Street in the pm oeak!