News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

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1NEEDS2POST
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4231 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:38 am

TorrensSA wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:08 pm
It's about people thinking they're more entitled to a service because they travel further. What we need is a higher frequency service so people use it, express services will cause longer wait times, especially services that express a lot of stations. A minimum 15 minute service is needed during the daytime on the Gawler line, why should someone at say Womma have a half hourly service so the person from Gawler can save 5mins, seems pretty unfair. The peak pattern is also pretty unfair, Gawler gets a fast express while other stations are at a 30min frequency. The timetable is outdated, Womma should be seeing a lot more services, it's close to the new estate of Eyre and is very easy access from the eastern Elizabeth suburbs. The Gawler line is 42 km long with 26 stations and takes an hour for an all stops train, which means it's quicker to get the train than drive. The fastest express takes 48mins and skips 18 stations, if we increase the frequency of all stations and say an average of 5 people per station thats 90 people who have been skipped. So somehow Johnny from Gawler is more important than the 90 people waiting for a train at the 18 skipped stations, so he can save 12mins. Higher frequency is needed before we need crazy express trains.
I did this analysis a few pages back. If we increase the frequency to one train every five minutes and make every train an all stops train, then every journey will be faster than the current set up.
1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:37 pm
Why do we bother with different stopping patterns on the Gawler line? In my opinion, all trains should be all stops, including North Adelaide. Let's see why.

All stops trains, including North Adelaide, take 56 minutes to travel from Gawler to Adelaide. During the day, most trains follow one of two stopping patterns. Pattern A trains will stop at half of the small stations, pattern B will stop at the other half. Travel times from Gawler to Adelaide are:
Pattern A: 52 minutes
Pattern B: 50 minutes

At 7:51 on Weekdays, there is a non-stop train from Adelaide to Salisbury. It takes 21 minutes. Compare to all-stops at 29 minutes. This a larger saving, but there are other big stations in between that this train skips.

My point is that there is not much time saving with skipping small stations. For people at the small stations, during the day, their frequency gets cut to once every half an hour. At the big stations, the frequency is once every 15 minutes.

So the average wait is 15 minutes at the small stations and 7.5 minutes at the big stations. Average journey time from Gawler to Adelaide during the day is:
(Pattern A + Pattern B)/2 + Average wait
(52 + 50)/2 + 7.5 = 58.5 minutes

But for say, Ovingham to Adelaide during the day is:
Pattern A + Average wait
6 + 15 = 21 minutes

If we make all trains all stops, the average journey time from Gawler to Adelaide during the day will be:
All stops + Average wait
56 + 7.5 = 63.5 minutes

But for say, Ovingham to Adelaide during the day will be:
All stops + Average wait
6 + 7.5 = 13.5 minutes

So average journey times increase slightly for Gawler, less for the other big stations. However, those passengers now have the option of getting off at more stations and the average journey time for people at the small stations is much faster. Furthermore, making all trains all stops reduced confusion with passengers.

If we make all trains all stops and increase frequency to every five minutes, the average journey time from Gawler to Adelaide during the day is back to:
All stops + Average wait
56 + 2.5 = 58.5 minutes

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4232 Post by Norman » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:20 am

That analysis is fine in theory, but in reality it is a lot more complex. There is also the annoyance factor, people for some reason prefer to catch express services over all stop services even if there is a longer wait for departure. For example, I have seen people catch a later express train than catching the all stops train that leaves right now, just to avoid the stopping, starting and excessive announcements.

I wonder if there is a study about that, I'll have to look into it.

For me, I prefer to wait for an express service over an all stops train as it lets me either sleep in a bit more before work or get that extra piece of work done before heading on the quick journey home.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4233 Post by Eurostar » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:50 am

Norman wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:20 am
That analysis is fine in theory, but in reality it is a lot more complex. There is also the annoyance factor, people for some reason prefer to catch express services over all stop services even if there is a longer wait for departure. For example, I have seen people catch a later express train than catching the all stops train that leaves right now, just to avoid the stopping, starting and excessive announcements.

I wonder if there is a study about that, I'll have to look into it.

For me, I prefer to wait for an express service over an all stops train as it lets me either sleep in a bit more before work or get that extra piece of work done before heading on the quick journey home.
Currently with the current timetable its run by diesels so the overall travel time is based on that not emus. The travel time for a express run from Gawler to Adelaide could be reduced if there was a third track as I suggested, of course some stations will have to be changed so the express track is in the middle and the speed limits were relaxed. Making trains an attractive alternative to driving is a good way to reduce traffic on roads and increase public transport passenger numbers.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4234 Post by ml69 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:28 am

Eurostar wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:50 am
Norman wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:20 am
That analysis is fine in theory, but in reality it is a lot more complex. There is also the annoyance factor, people for some reason prefer to catch express services over all stop services even if there is a longer wait for departure. For example, I have seen people catch a later express train than catching the all stops train that leaves right now, just to avoid the stopping, starting and excessive announcements.

I wonder if there is a study about that, I'll have to look into it.

For me, I prefer to wait for an express service over an all stops train as it lets me either sleep in a bit more before work or get that extra piece of work done before heading on the quick journey home.
Currently with the current timetable its run by diesels so the overall travel time is based on that not emus. The travel time for a express run from Gawler to Adelaide could be reduced if there was a third track as I suggested, of course some stations will have to be changed so the express track is in the middle and the speed limits were relaxed. Making trains an attractive alternative to driving is a good way to reduce traffic on roads and increase public transport passenger numbers.
Isn’t the Seaford line an all-stops 15 min frequency service during the weekday inter peak period?
I’d prefer to see a similar arrangement for the Gawler service so all stations receive 15 mins weekday frequency, SUPPLEMENTED by express trains during morning and afternoon peak periods.

Get rid of the current Pattern A and B service once electrification is complete.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4235 Post by SBD » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:51 pm

Five minute train intervals sound nice for people travelling along the railway. I live one side, but drive to work and church on the other side. Lots of people cross it for schools, shops etc too.

How many level crossings would need to be grade separated for 5 minute trains? Curtis Road queue would back up on Main North Road at certain times of day, so would Anderson Walk I think. Commercial Road and Park Terrace would likely also clog up, despite a nearby bridge on Salisbury Highway.

I guess once Torrens Road is finished, there won’t b problems further down the line any more.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4236 Post by Aidan » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:23 pm

ml69 wrote: Isn’t the Seaford line an all-stops 15 min frequency service during the weekday inter peak period?
Not quite. The section between Woodlands Park and Adelaide has half the Seaford trains running express and the other half stopping. So Northbound trains arrive in Adelaide at irregular intervals, and southbound trains are at irregular intervals everywhere else.
I’d prefer to see a similar arrangement for the Gawler service so all stations receive 15 mins weekday frequency, SUPPLEMENTED by express trains during morning and afternoon peak periods.
Get rid of the current Pattern A and B service once electrification is complete.
That's quite inefficient in terms of railcar usage. Much better to have a station part way along the line where the stopping trains can terminate, like they did at Brighton (offpeak) before electrification.

For example, the trains would run all stations from Gawler Central to Salisbury, after which it would run express to Mawson Lakes and Adelaide. A stopping train would leave Salisbury a minute later, catering for passengers using intermediate stations.
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4237 Post by SBD » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:57 pm

Aidan wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:23 pm
ml69 wrote: Isn’t the Seaford line an all-stops 15 min frequency service during the weekday inter peak period?
Not quite. The section between Woodlands Park and Adelaide has half the Seaford trains running express and the other half stopping. So Northbound trains arrive in Adelaide at irregular intervals, and southbound trains are at irregular intervals everywhere else.
I’d prefer to see a similar arrangement for the Gawler service so all stations receive 15 mins weekday frequency, SUPPLEMENTED by express trains during morning and afternoon peak periods.
Get rid of the current Pattern A and B service once electrification is complete.
That's quite inefficient in terms of railcar usage. Much better to have a station part way along the line where the stopping trains can terminate, like they did at Brighton (offpeak) before electrification.

For example, the trains would run all stations from Gawler Central to Salisbury, after which it would run express to Mawson Lakes and Adelaide. A stopping train would leave Salisbury a minute later, catering for passengers using intermediate stations.
Dry Creek Station used to be used like that. I assume it was a hangover from trains to Northfield being interleaved with the ones from Gawler. There was a third track to facilitate the transfers. It may even have had island platforms both sides so transfers either way could be straight across.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4238 Post by Westside » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:38 pm

SBD wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:57 pm

Dry Creek Station used to be used like that. I assume it was a hangover from trains to Northfield being interleaved with the ones from Gawler. There was a third track to facilitate the transfers. It may even have had island platforms both sides so transfers either way could be straight across.
Just like Glanville for the old Semaphore line. Seamless transfer in either direction. They knew how to operate a railway system back then!

At least Glanville still has short workings to permit express trains between Adelaide and Port Adelaide. But only in the morning peak, which is weird.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4239 Post by Norman » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:26 am

Westside wrote:
SBD wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:57 pm

Dry Creek Station used to be used like that. I assume it was a hangover from trains to Northfield being interleaved with the ones from Gawler. There was a third track to facilitate the transfers. It may even have had island platforms both sides so transfers either way could be straight across.
Just like Glanville for the old Semaphore line. Seamless transfer in either direction. They knew how to operate a railway system back then!

At least Glanville still has short workings to permit express trains between Adelaide and Port Adelaide. But only in the morning peak, which is weird.
That's done on purpose to allow a 15 minute frequency between Adelaide and Woodville in conjuction with the Grange line.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4240 Post by Brucetiki » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:40 pm

SBD wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:57 pm
Aidan wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:23 pm
ml69 wrote: Isn’t the Seaford line an all-stops 15 min frequency service during the weekday inter peak period?
Not quite. The section between Woodlands Park and Adelaide has half the Seaford trains running express and the other half stopping. So Northbound trains arrive in Adelaide at irregular intervals, and southbound trains are at irregular intervals everywhere else.
I’d prefer to see a similar arrangement for the Gawler service so all stations receive 15 mins weekday frequency, SUPPLEMENTED by express trains during morning and afternoon peak periods.
Get rid of the current Pattern A and B service once electrification is complete.
That's quite inefficient in terms of railcar usage. Much better to have a station part way along the line where the stopping trains can terminate, like they did at Brighton (offpeak) before electrification.

For example, the trains would run all stations from Gawler Central to Salisbury, after which it would run express to Mawson Lakes and Adelaide. A stopping train would leave Salisbury a minute later, catering for passengers using intermediate stations.
Dry Creek Station used to be used like that. I assume it was a hangover from trains to Northfield being interleaved with the ones from Gawler. There was a third track to facilitate the transfers. It may even have had island platforms both sides so transfers either way could be straight across.
Dry Creek still has that third track/platform (platforms 1/2 are an island platform, platform 3 is a side platform), but platform 1 is rarely used.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4241 Post by Eurostar » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:33 pm

I recall some of my home run journeys in the evening the train used platform 1 , I believe its so the points get used still, makes sure that the trigger and signals are working correctly too.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4242 Post by TorrensSA » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:57 pm

The Gawler line is 42km long and the Seaford line is 36km, I don't see why people are calling for a third track on the Gawler line and not the Seaford line. Both don't need a third line, what they need is regular services and an underground city tunnel linking the two up. The Gawler line also has no spur line, so even less need for an expensive waste of money third track. That money that could be used for the tunnel or extensions to Aldinga or Gawler East or Roseworthy.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4243 Post by Eurostar » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:18 am

TorrensSA wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:57 pm
The Gawler line is 42km long and the Seaford line is 36km, I don't see why people are calling for a third track on the Gawler line and not the Seaford line. Both don't need a third line, what they need is regular services and an underground city tunnel linking the two up. The Gawler line also has no spur line, so even less need for an expensive waste of money third track. That money that could be used for the tunnel or extensions to Aldinga or Gawler East or Roseworthy.
Gawler should be transformed into a city with height limits relaxed to allow tall buildings and support nearby rural towns. Same goes for Noarlunga Centre and maybe even Mount Barker. Regular public transport from these cities to nearby rural towns may then be viable.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4244 Post by SBD » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:24 am

TorrensSA wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:57 pm
The Gawler line is 42km long and the Seaford line is 36km, I don't see why people are calling for a third track on the Gawler line and not the Seaford line. Both don't need a third line, what they need is regular services and an underground city tunnel linking the two up. The Gawler line also has no spur line, so even less need for an expensive waste of money third track. That money that could be used for the tunnel or extensions to Aldinga or Gawler East or Roseworthy.
I wonder if the demographics have moved far enough to reinstate passenger services on the Dry Creek line - say Elizabeth to Osborne. There's a lot more residential around Mawson Lakes than there used to be.

Practically, since that line is now under the control of ARTC, it might not be available until after a new approach to Port Adelaide is created (the Northern Connector railway and the Globelink eastern bypass).

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4245 Post by Norman » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:44 am

Eurostar wrote:
TorrensSA wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:57 pm
The Gawler line is 42km long and the Seaford line is 36km, I don't see why people are calling for a third track on the Gawler line and not the Seaford line. Both don't need a third line, what they need is regular services and an underground city tunnel linking the two up. The Gawler line also has no spur line, so even less need for an expensive waste of money third track. That money that could be used for the tunnel or extensions to Aldinga or Gawler East or Roseworthy.
Gawler should be transformed into a city with height limits relaxed to allow tall buildings and support nearby rural towns. Same goes for Noarlunga Centre and maybe even Mount Barker. Regular public transport from these cities to nearby rural towns may then be viable.
I don't think height limits are an issue here, but rather a lack of demand for such buildings in those areas. You can't build tall buildings for the sake of building them.

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