News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4246 Post by Aidan » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:26 pm

TorrensSA wrote:The Gawler line is 42km long and the Seaford line is 36km, I don't see why people are calling for a third track on the Gawler line and not the Seaford line. Both don't need a third line, what they need is regular services and an underground city tunnel linking the two up. The Gawler line also has no spur line, so even less need for an expensive waste of money third track. That money that could be used for the tunnel or extensions to Aldinga or Gawler East or Roseworthy.
If we limit our discussions to what's most urgently needed, it's harder for us to avoid the short termism that's come to dominate DPTI's decisions.

Also, there are already 3 tracks (and more) along much of the Gawler Line. Yes, they're owned by ARTC and are the wrong gauge for our suburban trains - but our trains and track are gauge convertible. Once the Northern Connector Railway is built, is there a better way to make use of the old route?

Indeed there are a lot of sidings and vacant railway land, so for most of the stretch between Islington and Mawson Lakes, it looks relatively easy to add extra suburban tracks without impacting operations on the ARTC tracks
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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4247 Post by gnrc_louis » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:07 pm

"Publicly-operated trains ran on schedule 97 per cent of the time in 2019, making them more prompt than Melbourne’s privatised trains, new statistics reveal."
Could someone please post the full Advertiser article which this line is taken from comparing Adelaide Metro trains to Melbourne's.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4248 Post by jimbly » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:29 pm

Adelaide’s public trains on time more often than Melbourne’s privatised trains
Adelaide’s publicly-operated trains ran on schedule 97 per cent of the time in 2019, making them more prompt than Melbourne’s privatised trains, new statistics reveal.

The figures, published on the Adelaide Metro and Victoria’s Metro websites, show Melbourne’s privately-run trains were only punctual 90.4 per cent of the time last year.

The data also revealed Adelaide’s trams arrived at their destination on time 95.8 per cent of the time in 2019 while Melbourne’s trams were on schedule just 82.7 per cent of the time.

The Opposition warns the statistics serve as more proof that the State Government’s plan to privatise Adelaide’s train and tram network is a bad idea, describing the data as “a stark reminder of the pitfalls of privately-run public transport”.

The SA Government last year announced it would privatise the operation of Adelaide’s tram network in 2020 and its train system in 2021.

It emphasised that infrastructure and ticket prices would remain under public control. Bus operations are already privatised.

The “on-time” figures come as one of the companies in the running to take over the city’s rail network is set to be stripped of its contract to operate the United Kingdom’s Northern Rail system because of unacceptable service levels.

The UK Government has started a process to rip up Deutsche Bahn’s 10-year contract, issued in 2015, due to trains routinely running late, with only one in two services operating on time.

The Government will either completely oust the company, which is Europe’s largest rail operator, or replace its existing contract with a short-term one.

As The Advertiser reported in December, Deutsche Bahn is among the companies short-listed to run Adelaide’s trains and trams.

Opposition Leader Peter Malinauskas said numerous private operators across the UK were failing to provide a reliable service and this should be seen as a red flag for the SA Government.

“The Marshall Liberal Government chose to highlight the UK as a shining example of privatisation – yet the record shows that privatisation in the UK is failing and there are moves to bring train services back into public ownership,” he said.

Mr Malinauskas also said Melbourne’s poorer “on-time” results were a sign of things to come in Adelaide once the rail system was privatised.

“Imagine going to a (tram) station and knowing there’s a one in five chance you’ll be waiting and waiting and waiting?” he said.

“That’s the reality for Victorians with their inferior, privately-run public transport.”

Mr Malinauskas, who reiterated his pledge to return the trains and trams to public hands if Labor wins the 2022 State Election, said the figures were “just another example of why this decision to privatise trains and trams in South Australia is a wrong one”.

“Wherever there has been privatisation of trains and trams overseas or even interstate, what we see is a decline in the service and an increase in the cost to the person who is commuting on the trains and trams,” he said.

Both Adelaide and Melbourne’s train services are considered “on time” if they arrive at their destination no later than four minutes and 59 seconds after the scheduled time in their timetables.

Transport Minister Stephan Knoll said the existing system was “not working as well as it should”.

“What we’re seeking to achieve here, and will achieve, as part of this outsourcing program is to help improve the way our public transport services operate,” he said.

“But at the end of the day, the metric by which a transport system needs to be measured is the number of people who choose to use it – On time running is only one part of the equation.”

Mr Knoll said price, frequency, safety and cleanliness also played a part in determining the quality of a service.

He said the contract drawn up by the Government would ensure the private operator would be held to account.

A Government spokesman said Labor were “hypocrites who privatised over $5 billion of assets when they were last in Government”.

“There is a robust and comprehensive independent procurement process that will ensure all companies competing for the tender can deliver better services for South Australians,” he said.

From https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sou ... db6e02e3a1

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4249 Post by Patrick_27 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:33 pm

jimbly wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:29 pm
Adelaide’s public trains on time more often than Melbourne’s privatised trains
Adelaide’s publicly-operated trains ran on schedule 97 per cent of the time in 2019, making them more prompt than Melbourne’s privatised trains, new statistics reveal.

The figures, published on the Adelaide Metro and Victoria’s Metro websites, show Melbourne’s privately-run trains were only punctual 90.4 per cent of the time last year.

The data also revealed Adelaide’s trams arrived at their destination on time 95.8 per cent of the time in 2019 while Melbourne’s trams were on schedule just 82.7 per cent of the time.

The Opposition warns the statistics serve as more proof that the State Government’s plan to privatise Adelaide’s train and tram network is a bad idea, describing the data as “a stark reminder of the pitfalls of privately-run public transport”.

The SA Government last year announced it would privatise the operation of Adelaide’s tram network in 2020 and its train system in 2021.

It emphasised that infrastructure and ticket prices would remain under public control. Bus operations are already privatised.

The “on-time” figures come as one of the companies in the running to take over the city’s rail network is set to be stripped of its contract to operate the United Kingdom’s Northern Rail system because of unacceptable service levels.

The UK Government has started a process to rip up Deutsche Bahn’s 10-year contract, issued in 2015, due to trains routinely running late, with only one in two services operating on time.

The Government will either completely oust the company, which is Europe’s largest rail operator, or replace its existing contract with a short-term one.

As The Advertiser reported in December, Deutsche Bahn is among the companies short-listed to run Adelaide’s trains and trams.

Opposition Leader Peter Malinauskas said numerous private operators across the UK were failing to provide a reliable service and this should be seen as a red flag for the SA Government.

“The Marshall Liberal Government chose to highlight the UK as a shining example of privatisation – yet the record shows that privatisation in the UK is failing and there are moves to bring train services back into public ownership,” he said.

Mr Malinauskas also said Melbourne’s poorer “on-time” results were a sign of things to come in Adelaide once the rail system was privatised.

“Imagine going to a (tram) station and knowing there’s a one in five chance you’ll be waiting and waiting and waiting?” he said.

“That’s the reality for Victorians with their inferior, privately-run public transport.”

Mr Malinauskas, who reiterated his pledge to return the trains and trams to public hands if Labor wins the 2022 State Election, said the figures were “just another example of why this decision to privatise trains and trams in South Australia is a wrong one”.

“Wherever there has been privatisation of trains and trams overseas or even interstate, what we see is a decline in the service and an increase in the cost to the person who is commuting on the trains and trams,” he said.

Both Adelaide and Melbourne’s train services are considered “on time” if they arrive at their destination no later than four minutes and 59 seconds after the scheduled time in their timetables.

Transport Minister Stephan Knoll said the existing system was “not working as well as it should”.

“What we’re seeking to achieve here, and will achieve, as part of this outsourcing program is to help improve the way our public transport services operate,” he said.

“But at the end of the day, the metric by which a transport system needs to be measured is the number of people who choose to use it – On time running is only one part of the equation.”

Mr Knoll said price, frequency, safety and cleanliness also played a part in determining the quality of a service.

He said the contract drawn up by the Government would ensure the private operator would be held to account.

A Government spokesman said Labor were “hypocrites who privatised over $5 billion of assets when they were last in Government”.

“There is a robust and comprehensive independent procurement process that will ensure all companies competing for the tender can deliver better services for South Australians,” he said.

From https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sou ... db6e02e3a1
Can someone explain to me what a private company stands to gain from operating our train and tram network(s)? If ticketing and infrastructure is to remain under government control, where do they actually make their return on investment? This has always been something that I didn't understand about our partly privatised bus networks.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4250 Post by muzzamo » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:49 pm

It’s an outsourcing arrangement. “Privatising”, while technically true, is a bit misleading.

For example, with made up figures - The government puts out to tender the operations of the network, subject to some pretty detailed specifications and KPIs, the winning bidder says e.g they will do it for $100M over four years. Previous internal cost was eg $150M over four years due to public sector bloat and waste. Operator has costs of $80M and can keep the $20M as profit. Government saves $50M.

The idea is that Operator comes in at a lower cost because the private sector is more innovative and efficient while the public sector doesn’t really have any incentive to save money and is hamstrung by tenured employees, cosy culture and unions. To a certain extent the operator is free to run the operations however they like as long as they meet their contractual obligations.

In reality the cost savings will definitely come from efficiencies but they will also drop their wages bill however they can eg by hiring more 457 workers.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4251 Post by mawsonguy » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:55 pm

jimbly wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:29 pm
Adelaide’s public trains on time more often than Melbourne’s privatised trains

Adelaide’s publicly-operated trains ran on schedule 97 per cent of the time in 2019, making them more prompt than Melbourne’s privatised trains, new statistics reveal.

The figures, published on the Adelaide Metro and Victoria’s Metro websites, show Melbourne’s privately-run trains were only punctual 90.4 per cent of the time last year.
The Melbourne's tram network is far more complex than ours. We effectively have only 4 lines - each of which runs independently of the others so a hold up on one doesn't cause delays on the others. Also they have long layovers at Adelaide Central so, if they are running late, then they can shorten the layover and be on time for the next run. The difference in on-time performance is caused by the difference between a complex system running at, or close to, capacity, and a simple system running well under capacity.
The data also revealed Adelaide’s trams arrived at their destination on time 95.8 per cent of the time in 2019 while Melbourne’s trams were on schedule just 82.7 per cent of the time.
They're comparing apples with pears. The Adelaide tram system runs in a dedicated off road corridor for most of its length and dedicated on-road corridors for the remainder. Most of Melbourne's tram network shares the road with cars. So our trams just run to their own schedule with no hold ups from Brighton Rd to Greenhill Road and otherwise are only stopped by traffic lights. Melbourne trams can get held up in traffic.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4252 Post by rubberman » Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:34 pm

muzzamo wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:49 pm
It’s an outsourcing arrangement. “Privatising”, while technically true, is a bit misleading.

For example, with made up figures - The government puts out to tender the operations of the network, subject to some pretty detailed specifications and KPIs, the winning bidder says e.g they will do it for $100M over four years. Previous internal cost was eg $150M over four years due to public sector bloat and waste. Operator has costs of $80M and can keep the $20M as profit. Government saves $50M.

The idea is that Operator comes in at a lower cost because the private sector is more innovative and efficient while the public sector doesn’t really have any incentive to save money and is hamstrung by tenured employees, cosy culture and unions. To a certain extent the operator is free to run the operations however they like as long as they meet their contractual obligations.

In reality the cost savings will definitely come from efficiencies but they will also drop their wages bill however they can eg by hiring more 457 workers.
I think the theory is clear, but do these savings ever eventuate?

I mean, look at the Sydney tram extension. Most of the work, concept, design and construction was private sector. However, the taxpayer carried all the risk.

Now, even looking at the public sector, unions and all, in the 1950s, not only did the trams run faster, they carried more people, and ran on track which was far cheaper and quicker to build. The present arrangement is run by the private sector. It was designed by the private sector. It was constructed by the private sector.

The idea that the private sector is more efficient than the public sector is something that needs to be tested, and not assumed.

Again, let's look at ETSA being privatised. We ended up with the most expensive power in Australia, and it was only the previous government moving in that shifted things in the other direction.

And yet. Here we are again. Privatising something without a comprehensive business case. What can possibly go wrong? Again....🤪

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4253 Post by SBD » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:39 pm

rubberman wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:34 pm
muzzamo wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:49 pm
It’s an outsourcing arrangement. “Privatising”, while technically true, is a bit misleading.

For example, with made up figures - The government puts out to tender the operations of the network, subject to some pretty detailed specifications and KPIs, the winning bidder says e.g they will do it for $100M over four years. Previous internal cost was eg $150M over four years due to public sector bloat and waste. Operator has costs of $80M and can keep the $20M as profit. Government saves $50M.

The idea is that Operator comes in at a lower cost because the private sector is more innovative and efficient while the public sector doesn’t really have any incentive to save money and is hamstrung by tenured employees, cosy culture and unions. To a certain extent the operator is free to run the operations however they like as long as they meet their contractual obligations.

In reality the cost savings will definitely come from efficiencies but they will also drop their wages bill however they can eg by hiring more 457 workers.
I think the theory is clear, but do these savings ever eventuate?

I mean, look at the Sydney tram extension. Most of the work, concept, design and construction was private sector. However, the taxpayer carried all the risk.

Now, even looking at the public sector, unions and all, in the 1950s, not only did the trams run faster, they carried more people, and ran on track which was far cheaper and quicker to build. The present arrangement is run by the private sector. It was designed by the private sector. It was constructed by the private sector.

The idea that the private sector is more efficient than the public sector is something that needs to be tested, and not assumed.

Again, let's look at ETSA being privatised. We ended up with the most expensive power in Australia, and it was only the previous government moving in that shifted things in the other direction.

And yet. Here we are again. Privatising something without a comprehensive business case. What can possibly go wrong? Again....🤪
I thought Adelaide’s trams are currently government-run, and the current government proposes to outsource it? I assume it could be through a process of “market testing” where the existing management can propose an in-house bid in competition to the private sector bids. My past experience of this happening to “internal services” in a Commonwealth department some years ago is that it took ten years to recover from the cuts made by the in-house bid succeeding. We would have been much better off if they had been outsourced like happened in other states.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4254 Post by Norman » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:28 am

Or they could just leave it as it is. Why try to fix something that is not particularly broken (there are minor issues, but they can be fixed internally without too much of an issue).

If the tram service was in chaos then, sure, outsource operations, but I don't understand what they are trying to fix from the current operations.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4255 Post by Brucetiki » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:01 am

One of the bidders for our network just got stripped of their contract in the UK for poor performance.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... r-21362459

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4256 Post by Brucetiki » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:03 am

Norman wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:28 am
Or they could just leave it as it is. Why try to fix something that is not particularly broken (there are minor issues, but they can be fixed internally without too much of an issue).

If the tram service was in chaos then, sure, outsource operations, but I don't understand what they are trying to fix from the current operations.
The only concern I have with the train network at the moment is the conduct of some of the security guys (which, to be honest, isn't isolated to the train network), and they're getting the boot.

Generally speaking our trains/trams are reliable, mostly on time, and actually in fairly good condition.

I don't think you can say that for Melbourne's privately run trains.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4257 Post by Eurostar » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:22 am

Norman wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:28 am
Or they could just leave it as it is. Why try to fix something that is not particularly broken (there are minor issues, but they can be fixed internally without too much of an issue).

If the tram service was in chaos then, sure, outsource operations, but I don't understand what they are trying to fix from the current operations.
SA Liberals will be in opposition in 2022. I imagine SA Labor will propose finishing off the electrification hence commence it for the Outer Harbor Line. I doubt they'll do the Port Dock branch line unless the museums and property developer pressures them to do so. I also reckon they'll propose the extension of the Seaford Line to Aldinga. And maybe diverting the freight lines away from Salisbury via Bolivar

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4258 Post by Norman » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:28 pm

Brucetiki wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:03 am
Norman wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:28 am
Or they could just leave it as it is. Why try to fix something that is not particularly broken (there are minor issues, but they can be fixed internally without too much of an issue).

If the tram service was in chaos then, sure, outsource operations, but I don't understand what they are trying to fix from the current operations.
The only concern I have with the train network at the moment is the conduct of some of the security guys (which, to be honest, isn't isolated to the train network), and they're getting the boot.

Generally speaking our trains/trams are reliable, mostly on time, and actually in fairly good condition.

I don't think you can say that for Melbourne's privately run trains.
Can you be more specific about the conduct of the security guards? From what I have seen they are generally fine.

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4259 Post by SBD » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:35 pm

Eurostar wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:22 am
Norman wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:28 am
Or they could just leave it as it is. Why try to fix something that is not particularly broken (there are minor issues, but they can be fixed internally without too much of an issue).

If the tram service was in chaos then, sure, outsource operations, but I don't understand what they are trying to fix from the current operations.
SA Liberals will be in opposition in 2022. I imagine SA Labor will propose finishing off the electrification hence commence it for the Outer Harbor Line. I doubt they'll do the Port Dock branch line unless the museums and property developer pressures them to do so. I also reckon they'll propose the extension of the Seaford Line to Aldinga. And maybe diverting the freight lines away from Salisbury via Bolivar
They announced a plan to electrify the Gawler line in 2008. If they couldn't get it done between then and 2018, what make you so confident that they will get elected in 2022 and finish the job including Outer Harbor (and Belair)?

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Re: News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

#4260 Post by SRW » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:09 pm

Labor obtained documents under FOI that show the government is actively considering Grange closure, just as we all suspected.

What a miserly, visionless government.
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