News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[claybro]

It's not an "either or" thing. Both West Lakes and Port centre lend themselves to be hubs. They will both be medium to high density, and will both support transport hubs. Once again though, westbLakes will not be able to be connected to heavy rail, and as most people seem to be against the idea of OH being light rail, West Lakes will be left only serviced by buses. Eventually the grange line will be closed when OH is electrified. Forget a standalone tram connecting grange and west lakes to Train at Woodville, and forget a bus interchange at Woodville , Adelaide people cannot be convinced to change modes/seats. This is the result of the agitation against light rail.

[1NEEDS2POST]

Forget a standalone tram connecting grange and west lakes to Train at Woodville, and forget a bus interchange at Woodville , Adelaide people cannot be convinced to change modes/seats. This is the result of the agitation against light rail.

The reason why people are currently unconvinced is because of low frequency. Let's say you're catching a bus to the train station, then a train into the city. If the bus comes every half hour and the train every half hour, then on average, you will wait 15 minutes for the bus and 15 minutes for the train. If the frequency is increased to every 10 minutes, then the average wait is 5 minutes and 5 minutes. A 20 minute improvement for the whole trip.

Connecting to a different route isn't that difficult for most people. When designed properly, it's as difficult as getting up from a chair, walking to the other side of the room and sitting down in another chair. When Dublin had their public transport network redesigned, one of the questions given to the public was this:


Taken from https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1228/b ... ummary.pdf

I don't see why Adelaide people would be any different.

The easiest way to increase frequency for West Lakes is to just drive the buses to Woodville station. Because the trip from West Lakes to Woodville is significantly shorter than the trip from West Lakes to the city, the same number of buses can cover the shorter route at a higher frequency.

More broadly, to increase frequency, the best way is to redesign the network to be a grid, with radial elements. The railways being radial elements.

[ml69]

Bus/rail connections into the CBD won't really come into their own until the CBD railway station is located where most people want to go ... the heart of the city. This mean rail tunnel under the city ....

[bits]

Isn't the heart of the city North Tce, Rundle/Hindley, Grenfell/Currie, Pirie/Waymouth.
The Adelaide train station is already extremely close to the heart of the city.

[claybro]

Its not just about the location of the station. A terminating central station in a commuter system is not efficient. Trains coming in to Adelaide yard slow to a dawdle, sometimes stop entirely and slow to walking pace pulling in to the platform. Trains departing-same situation-pull away from the platform, sometimes stop again, dawdle through the yard.... With thru stations this is not an issue. (unless some incident or congestion delays have caused a hold up in the loop as sometimes happens in Melbourne). Trains approach the station at speed, stop quickly once aligned with the platform and then take off again at speed. Also with a loop there would be multiple stations so less commuter congestion in one spot, faster loading and unloading etc.

[rev]

Its not just about the location of the station. A terminating central station in a commuter system is not efficient. Trains coming in to Adelaide yard slow to a dawdle, sometimes stop entirely and slow to walking pace pulling in to the platform. Trains departing-same situation-pull away from the platform, sometimes stop again, dawdle through the yard.... With thru stations this is not an issue. (unless some incident or congestion delays have caused a hold up in the loop as sometimes happens in Melbourne). Trains approach the station at speed, stop quickly once aligned with the platform and then take off again at speed. Also with a loop there would be multiple stations so less commuter congestion in one spot, faster loading and unloading etc.

Well, overall our city is a dogs breakfast. Be it transport or building planning/etc.

The south east/west corners of the city should be built up with residential towers. The only residential towers that should exist outside of those areas, should be around the east end, and in mixed use developments.
By building up the south west of the city, it would justify a second city train station, that could be linked by an underground metro through the city/cbd and connecting to the existing station. It would also be more beneficial for expanding the tram network into that corner of the city. And overall, creating an integrated transport network.
Of course, this is South Australia. Such big city things will never happen here because "we don't need that"..until you need it, and then you'll have to spend billions...kind of like the re-deployment of the tram network(when we once had an extensive network), or the building of motorways(when we had a plan five decades ago and it wouldn't have been as disruptive or costly).

Why does Melbourne need a tunneled train link to Tullamarine? They have a freeway that takes you directly to the airport, and it's linked to freeways from every corner of the metro area.

We can't have heavy rail running on the outer harbor line, while trams run down Port Road....said South Australians...go over to Melbourne, check Wellington Parade/Flinders St...heavy rail AND trams..but nope, can't do it in Adelaide. Until we will need it, and then it's going to cost many billions more.

Two major train stations within walking distance of each other, one with an added major bus terminal...but nope, a second train station in Adelaide isn't possible.

I suggested the idea for the south west corner of the city, with an extended tram network through the area, and building the area up as high rise residential. Linking it with a tunnel through the city/cbd to the existing station..go read the thread in visions section lol, it's full of excuses why it can't happen. That's probably one of the major problems with this state. Something visionary or bold, by this states standards over the last 50 years comes up, and most withdrawal with some sort of PTSD and shoot it down, as if a big change in our city will somehow hurt them.

Adelaide needs to break this psychological barrier. Then it'll really prosper and flourish.

[Goodsy]

I suggested the idea for the south west corner of the city, with an extended tram network through the area, and building the area up as high rise residential. Linking it with a tunnel through the city/cbd to the existing station..go read the thread in visions section lol, it's full of excuses why it can't happen. That's probably one of the major problems with this state. Something visionary or bold, by this states standards over the last 50 years comes up, and most withdrawal with some sort of PTSD and shoot it down, as if a big change in our city will somehow hurt them.

Adelaide needs to break this psychological barrier. Then it'll really prosper and flourish.

It's not even bold or visionary things that get shot down, it's basic things that actually make sense like the O-Bahn tunnel.

[crawf]

On a plus side, it's very encouraging to see the State Government are planning for the future. For example, in plans for the recent SAHMRI 2, it shows land set aside for an underground railway line between the new UniSA and Adelaide Uni buildings. I give it another 10-15 years before this becomes a serious proposal. It's slowly gaining more traction.

We can't have heavy rail running on the outer harbor line, while trams run down Port Road....said South Australians...go over to Melbourne, check Wellington Parade/Flinders St...heavy rail AND trams..but nope, can't do it in Adelaide. Until we will need it, and then it's going to cost many billions more.

Umm..
3.2km - Flinders Street/Wellington Parade
12km - Port Road/Commerical Road

Btw what you've described is basically North Terrace.

Considering a tramline along Port Road would be extremely costly due to the complications surrounding the current intersections and demand would be very limited. It would be much wiser to modernise electrify and boast services along the Outer Harbor Line and encourage dense living around stations like Bowden/Hindmarsh, Kilkenny, Woodville and Port Adelaide.

Other than that, you do raise some good points.

It's not even bold or visionary things that get shot down, it's basic things that actually make sense like the O-Bahn tunnel.

It involved the parklands, which is sacred space in any city. Eventually common sense prevailed and it got built.

[Ser Noit of Loit]

The south east/west corners of the city should be built up with residential towers. The only residential towers that should exist outside of those areas, should be around the east end, and in mixed use developments.
By building up the south west of the city, it would justify a second city train station, that could be linked by an underground metro through the city/cbd and connecting to the existing station. It would also be more beneficial for expanding the tram network into that corner of the city. And overall, creating an integrated transport network.
Of course, this is South Australia. Such big city things will never happen here because "we don't need that"..until you need it, and then you'll have to spend billions...kind of like the re-deployment of the tram network(when we once had an extensive network), or the building of motorways(when we had a plan five decades ago and it wouldn't have been as disruptive or costly).

I agree about the problem Adelaide has where there's so much resistance against big and necessary changes. It's frustrating seeing other cities doing things well and wanting Adelaide to do similar things to improve. There are ways to improve the Belair Line significantly which would never happen because the majority of residents in the inner south are the sort that would protest against it all.

I'm interested though, what are your reasons for not having towers beyond the south west and south east? And why focus high-rises there?

[Waewick]

I suggested the idea for the south west corner of the city, with an extended tram network through the area, and building the area up as high rise residential. Linking it with a tunnel through the city/cbd to the existing station..go read the thread in visions section lol, it's full of excuses why it can't happen. That's probably one of the major problems with this state. Something visionary or bold, by this states standards over the last 50 years comes up, and most withdrawal with some sort of PTSD and shoot it down, as if a big change in our city will somehow hurt them.

Adelaide needs to break this psychological barrier. Then it'll really prosper and flourish.

It's not even bold or visionary things that get shot down, it's basic things that actually make sense like the O-Bahn tunnel.

The tram extension and obahn are viewed like they are because they weren't sold well and appear to be political decisions rather than structured infrastructure decisions.

I still believe there is a future for Trams in Adelaide, we just need to sell it well.

[rev]

The south east/west corners of the city should be built up with residential towers. The only residential towers that should exist outside of those areas, should be around the east end, and in mixed use developments.
By building up the south west of the city, it would justify a second city train station, that could be linked by an underground metro through the city/cbd and connecting to the existing station. It would also be more beneficial for expanding the tram network into that corner of the city. And overall, creating an integrated transport network.
Of course, this is South Australia. Such big city things will never happen here because "we don't need that"..until you need it, and then you'll have to spend billions...kind of like the re-deployment of the tram network(when we once had an extensive network), or the building of motorways(when we had a plan five decades ago and it wouldn't have been as disruptive or costly).

I agree about the problem Adelaide has where there's so much resistance against big and necessary changes. It's frustrating seeing other cities doing things well and wanting Adelaide to do similar things to improve. There are ways to improve the Belair Line significantly which would never happen because the majority of residents in the inner south are the sort that would protest against it all.

I'm interested though, what are your reasons for not having towers beyond the south west and south east? And why focus high-rises there?

Oh I’m not saying towers should be concentrated there, just that that side of the city should be predominantly the residential quarter as far as towers are concerned.
I dunno why, I guess it’s relatively under developed and already has low rise residential.

[Eurostar]

In this week Bunyip Press they were talking about, the railway would have to be lowered so that the wires can fit underneath the Bridge St at Gawler Central. Also issue of Murray Street level crossing if services are extended to Concordia, level crossing could be down 4 times a hour, grade seperating will be a squeeze but can be done.

[Eurostar]

According to an article in this week's Bunyip Press it'll be best to demolish the King Street Bridge in Gawler.

[Waewick]

So this months state budget will have fully funded announcement for Gawler Electrification.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sou ... 30f0c0686c

THREE of the state’s most pressing infrastructure projects will be completed in the next four years, with $395 million of federal funding to be fast-tracked for South Australia.

$220 million for electrification of the Gawler line

[rubberman]

Its not just about the location of the station. A terminating central station in a commuter system is not efficient. Trains coming in to Adelaide yard slow to a dawdle, sometimes stop entirely and slow to walking pace pulling in to the platform. Trains departing-same situation-pull away from the platform, sometimes stop again, dawdle through the yard.... With thru stations this is not an issue. (unless some incident or congestion delays have caused a hold up in the loop as sometimes happens in Melbourne). Trains approach the station at speed, stop quickly once aligned with the platform and then take off again at speed. Also with a loop there would be multiple stations so less commuter congestion in one spot, faster loading and unloading etc.

Well, overall our city is a dogs breakfast. Be it transport or building planning/etc.

The south east/west corners of the city should be built up with residential towers. The only residential towers that should exist outside of those areas, should be around the east end, and in mixed use developments.
By building up the south west of the city, it would justify a second city train station, that could be linked by an underground metro through the city/cbd and connecting to the existing station. It would also be more beneficial for expanding the tram network into that corner of the city. And overall, creating an integrated transport network.
Of course, this is South Australia. Such big city things will never happen here because "we don't need that"..until you need it, and then you'll have to spend billions...kind of like the re-deployment of the tram network(when we once had an extensive network), or the building of motorways(when we had a plan five decades ago and it wouldn't have been as disruptive or costly).

Why does Melbourne need a tunneled train link to Tullamarine? They have a freeway that takes you directly to the airport, and it's linked to freeways from every corner of the metro area.

We can't have heavy rail running on the outer harbor line, while trams run down Port Road....said South Australians...go over to Melbourne, check Wellington Parade/Flinders St...heavy rail AND trams..but nope, can't do it in Adelaide. Until we will need it, and then it's going to cost many billions more.

Two major train stations within walking distance of each other, one with an added major bus terminal...but nope, a second train station in Adelaide isn't possible.

I suggested the idea for the south west corner of the city, with an extended tram network through the area, and building the area up as high rise residential. Linking it with a tunnel through the city/cbd to the existing station..go read the thread in visions section lol, it's full of excuses why it can't happen. That's probably one of the major problems with this state. Something visionary or bold, by this states standards over the last 50 years comes up, and most withdrawal with some sort of PTSD and shoot it down, as if a big change in our city will somehow hurt them.

Adelaide needs to break this psychological barrier. Then it'll really prosper and flourish.

Wouldn’t a better comparison be the conversion of the Port Melbourne and St Kilda heavy rail to trams? Of course, the heavy rail fanboy types howled, but the improvements for ordinary commuters were significant. Not to mention the savings in money.

A fast tram service to Outer Harbor, Grange and West Lakes would enable a lot more frequent and interconnected service.