News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

[Amused]

Rubberman, I am buggered if I can pick why you were out for blood against my posts a few pages back. Reading your last few posts I see that our views on the NBN and its management are quite aligned.
As for Telstra's input, if I remember correctly from the information at the time, pre-constructuion, it was indeed Telstra that stalled momentum particularly in SA for an extended period as it refused to compromise and come to the party, to the point where NBNCo threatened to remove Telstra from negotiations. I remember it clearly because I was 'amused' in a bad way, in that it just sounded so typical of the appallingly self centered attitude that I had become accustomed to when dealing with them.

One can only hope that South Road gets finished before the NBN because I can almost guarantee that the minute, nay the second, that the NBN construction is complete, any new housing developments springing up, particularly in the northern suburbs as a result will all find themselves enjoying only Telstra's wireless technology. You can be damn certain no further fibre, nodes, copper or otherwise will be laid and the whole telecommunications sector will once again be held to ransom by Telstra for the benefit of shareholders.

Lastly, the ongoing costs of copper maintenance... yes, yes yes! This is exactly what I've been exasperatedly saying for months. This tied with the fact that the likely reduction in service is not proportional with the likely reduction in expenditure. Paying 70% of the construction price for 25% of the outcome (whilst overestimating ALP costings anyway) is not value for money but this is the snake oil that Turnbull and Co have been selling the entire time.
It is just... not...value... for money and I'm tired of it being pandered to us as if it is a good outcome.

I recognise that this next part will get the financial conservatists offside but I have always lived by the philosophy of 'if you're going to make a mistake, make it with confidence and then have the integrity to recognise your mistake if indeed it was one." If the original NBN plan was in fact a financial mistake then at least the ALP was making it with confidence. This back and forth, the hesitation, the stop work for renewed reviews into whether the reviews reviewed enough reviews just poops me and quite frankly leads to a stagnation that can take years to recover from in a fashion that Rubberman pointed out. People want certainty which is completely unnatural and subjective anyway. When cable needs to be laid across an entire country, there is no certainty, so the banging on about nobody having 'accurate projected costings' is just tiresome and it is just never going to happen to everyone's satisfaction. I mean for heaven's sake, how can we determine without hindsight if a projected costing was accurate? At a certain point, someone is going to have to pick up a tool and start doing something.

[monotonehell]

Lastly, the ongoing costs of copper maintenance... yes, yes yes! This is exactly what I've been exasperatedly saying for months. This tied with the fact that the likely reduction in service is not proportional with the likely reduction in expenditure. Paying 70% of the construction price for 25% of the outcome (whilst overestimating ALP costings anyway) is not value for money but this is the snake oil that Turnbull and Co have been selling the entire time.
It is just... not...value... for money and I'm tired of it being pandered to us as if it is a good outcome.

^ This. In spades. All through the election this has been said, and roundly ignored. What kind of business plan ignores ongoing costs and risks?

I recognise that this next part will get the financial conservatists offside but I have always lived by the philosophy of 'if you're going to make a mistake, make it with confidence and then have the integrity to recognise your mistake if indeed it was one." If the original NBN plan was in fact a financial mistake then at least the ALP was making it with confidence. This back and forth, the hesitation, the stop work for renewed reviews into whether the reviews reviewed enough reviews just poops me and quite frankly leads to a stagnation that can take years to recover from in a fashion that Rubberman pointed out. People want certainty which is completely unnatural and subjective anyway. When cable needs to be laid across an entire country, there is no certainty, so the banging on about nobody having 'accurate projected costings' is just tiresome and it is just never going to happen to everyone's satisfaction. I mean for heaven's sake, how can we determine without hindsight if a projected costing was accurate? At a certain point, someone is going to have to pick up a tool and start doing something.

Not sure if I agree with your philosophy, but yes. Stopping the work is reducing what little skills capacity the industry has managed to build over the past few years. If Turbull's review is an honest one, FTTP will be its conclusion, and that capacity will need to be rebuilt. Sadly the contractors, already shy from Labor's mismanagement, will be less willing and able to sign up to new contracts.

[rubberman]

Rubberman, I am buggered if I can pick why you were out for blood against my posts a few pages back. Reading your last few posts I see that our views on the NBN and its management are quite aligned.

Hmm, I am not quite sure to which post of mine you were referring.

If it was the one where I was trying to explain why it was not generally possible for FTTN to be extended to individual premises - even if they were prepared to pay extra for the privilege, then it was an attempt for humour on my part that went astray. No seeking for blood at all. If you saw it that way, then my apologies.

[fabricator]

Lastly, the ongoing costs of copper maintenance... yes, yes yes! This is exactly what I've been exasperatedly saying for months. This tied with the fact that the likely reduction in service is not proportional with the likely reduction in expenditure. Paying 70% of the construction price for 25% of the outcome (whilst overestimating ALP costings anyway) is not value for money but this is the snake oil that Turnbull and Co have been selling the entire time.
It is just... not...value... for money and I'm tired of it being pandered to us as if it is a good outcome.

^ This. In spades. All through the election this has been said, and roundly ignored. What kind of business plan ignores ongoing costs and risks?

What business plan, we don't even know what the retail costs for a service on the new FTTN network will be. However given the costs of maintaining the nodes themselves (contains battery bank) and the copper, it's going to be more than the same service over FTTH, none of those extra costs exist with FTTH. Also there are no high speed (50-1000 mb/s) plans (with higher retail costs) to help pay for the network build.

Turnbull's so called NBN is nothing but a sham and a monumental waste of money.

[monotonehell]

What business plan, we don't even know what the retail costs for a service on the new FTTN network will be. However given the costs of maintaining the nodes themselves (contains battery bank) and the copper, it's going to be more than the same service over FTTH, none of those extra costs exist with FTTH. Also there are no high speed (50-1000 mb/s) plans (with higher retail costs) to help pay for the network build.

Turnbull's so called NBN is nothing but a sham and a monumental waste of money.

True, and to think I was starting to buy the "review process" hype.

We mustn't forget that before the election campaign started, the Libs wanted to dismantle the NBN. They found that they couldn't sell that stance so they created a fake plan that sounded good, but doesn't hold up to even the lightest scrutiny, then went ahead to sell it with blatant catchphrases like "sooner" and "cheaper".

It's all a smokescreen while they dismantle a national infrastructure project and re-establish the anti-competitive monopoly that Howard set up; Telstra. Meanwhile the Telstra management continue to extract any worth from that organisation in the form of unsustainable profits, at the cost of communications infrastructure, and the technical skills to build infrastructure, and shift all the work offshore.

The loser is all of us.

[monotonehell]

Malcolm Turnbull appointed Simon Hackett to the NBN board this morning. Hackett hopefully will bring a bit of science to the project. Probably one of the few telecommunications industry execs who actually understand the technology involved.

Malcolm Turnbull appoints internet entrepreneur Simon Hackett to NBN Co board
By business reporter Pat McGrath

Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has appointed the internet entrepreneur Simon Hackett to the board of the company in charge of the National Broadband Network rollout. Mr Hackett founded the internet service providers Internode and Agile Communications. Mr Turnbull has also appointed the former head of NBN Co's construction division, Patrick Flannagan, to board, as well as former Bigpond and Telstra executive Justin Milne.

In a statement, NBN Co executive chairman Ziggy Switkowski said the two appointees are well-established industry figures with lengthy careers in telecommunications and broadband. "This is a period of transition for the company and it will be a great asset to have a new board that brings decades of combined experience in the industry," he said.

It comes after almost the entire NBN Co board quit in September. Dr Switkowski was appointed as head of the government-owned business after the former chief executive Mike Quigley resigned in July. The new appointees will be joined on the board by exisiting directions Alison Lansley and Kerry Schott. The board is expected to deliver a review of the NBN rollout by the start of next month.

http://abc.net.au/news/2013-11-12/turnb ... ts/5085672

[monotonehell]

For those who wonder where Hackett sits in all this, it's at a very rational point. http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn- ... er-budget/

[drsmith]

Fibre via the pole ?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busines ... 6760180929#

Latest rollout stats,

http://www.nbnco.com.au/about-us/weekly ... eport.html

[monotonehell]

Fibre via the pole ?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busines ... 6760180929#

North or South Pole?
Here's a sneaky link for those who don't subscribe... https://www.google.com.au/search?q=repo ... bn&tbm=nws

It's an interesting cost saving idea, but I'd like to see the actual cost benefits over say 20 years of maintenance. Exposed cables are subject to birds chewing on them as well as weather events, accidents, etc. I'd expect those costs to be different in different places due to differing fauna and climates.

Aurora says there have been "little or no" complaints about the visual impact of the first stage of the rollout in Tasmania, composed of 90 per cent aerial cabling. "It makes little difference to visual amenity," it says.

I differ to beg. Personally I'm not loving the idea of more suspended cables, only for aesthetics. I'd prefer all services to be underground.

[Aidan]

Fibre via the pole ?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busines ... 6760180929#

North or South Pole?
Here's a sneaky link for those who don't subscribe... https://www.google.com.au/search?q=repo ... bn&tbm=nws
you don't need to go to that much trouble, you can just replace theaustralian with news.

It's an interesting cost saving idea, but I'd like to see the actual cost benefits over say 20 years of maintenance. Exposed cables are subject to birds chewing on them as well as weather events, accidents, etc. I'd expect those costs to be different in different places due to differing fauna and climates.

Aurora says there have been "little or no" complaints about the visual impact of the first stage of the rollout in Tasmania, composed of 90 per cent aerial cabling. "It makes little difference to visual amenity," it says.

I differ to beg. Personally I'm not loving the idea of more suspended cables, only for aesthetics. I'd prefer all services to be underground.

Where the Telstra ducts already exist, it makes sense to use them. But where these don't exist it makes sense to use poles unless they can combine it with electricity cable undergrounding.

[rubberman]

Without detracting from the truth in what you say Aidan, the situations where there are poles for electricity, but no ducts already existing, are likely to be very few indeed. Almost all old suburbs would have ducts, and new suburbs don't have poles. Not to say that there are not exceptions, but probably won't make much difference to the overall cost.

Also, normally if one wants to use poles, then the cost of running a messenger wire, suspending cable from it and all that jazz can't be that much different to pulling it through a duct.

Where it might make a difference is in the situation where a particular duct in a given street is unservicable for some reason. In that case, IF there are poles in that street, it might be worth while. It might also be a way whereby people who want to pay for extending fibre from the node can have their fibre. It would be bloody expensive, and only happen where there are poles in the street, but at least it would be feasible, whereas it is physically impossible to do in a street without poles.

Of course that would mean that that particular street would have to say good bye to ever having its power services undergrounded since the poles would still be needed for the fibre cables.

[Aidan]

...

Of course that would mean that that particular street would have to say good bye to ever having its power services undergrounded since the poles would still be needed for the fibre cables.

I don't see why. Surely if the power is undergrounded the fibre optic cables can be undergrounded with them?

[rubberman]

Yes aidan, but not cheaper than just pulling them through an existing duct.

And since that was the whole argument that killed FTTH and unless Turnbull has a change of heart, it is that reason rather than physical impracticality that is at work here.

[monotonehell]

So to summarise, the Coalition's NBN is not going to be cheaper, sooner or faster.

[Aidan]

Yes aidan, but not cheaper than just pulling them through an existing duct.

And since that was the whole argument that killed FTTH and unless Turnbull has a change of heart, it is that reason rather than physical impracticality that is at work here.

Why would adding them to a new electricity duct be more expensive than pulling them through an existing phone duct?

So to summarise, the Coalition's NBN is not going to be cheaper, sooner or faster.

Up until last week I thought the Coalition's NBN was going to be more expensive and slower. But now Simon Hackett's on the board I wouldn't bet on that.