[U/C] North-South Motorway

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Waewick
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[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4276 Post by Waewick » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:45 pm

rev wrote:Get a grip Adelaide, South Road is not lined by the Pyramid of Giza, Parthenon, Colloseum, Machu Picchu or the Great Wall.
Agreed. Sure there are some 100 year old buildings, if they are that important move them like has been done with other buildings.

Otherwise, get the dozer, it's progress time.

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[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4277 Post by Patrick_27 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:48 pm

Waewick wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:45 pm
rev wrote:Get a grip Adelaide, South Road is not lined by the Pyramid of Giza, Parthenon, Colloseum, Machu Picchu or the Great Wall.
Agreed. Sure there are some 100 year old buildings, if they are that important move them like has been done with other buildings.

Otherwise, get the dozer, it's progress time.
And you know what? If this kind of thinking were present 1,000/2,000 years ago, those aforementioned structures probably wouldn't exist. I'm not saying that a few cottages and a theatre building are on the same scale, but it's your types that will allow the destruction of any historic character this city has left in favour of what you call 'progress', it's a fairly one dimensional way of thinking.

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[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4278 Post by rev » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:24 pm

Patrick_27 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:48 pm
Waewick wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:45 pm
rev wrote:Get a grip Adelaide, South Road is not lined by the Pyramid of Giza, Parthenon, Colloseum, Machu Picchu or the Great Wall.
Agreed. Sure there are some 100 year old buildings, if they are that important move them like has been done with other buildings.

Otherwise, get the dozer, it's progress time.
And you know what? If this kind of thinking were present 1,000/2,000 years ago, those aforementioned structures probably wouldn't exist. I'm not saying that a few cottages and a theatre building are on the same scale, but it's your types that will allow the destruction of any historic character this city has left in favour of what you call 'progress', it's a fairly one dimensional way of thinking.
Many more significant and important buildings have been destroyed over thousands of years of humanity, then the insignificant buildings that line South Road.

Nothing that lines South Road is significant enough in any way shape or form to stop the evolution of South Road in it's entirety into a motorway, something that should have happened half a century ago.
Nor is any of it significant enough to justify the extreme cost of tunnels. Although I'd like to see a tunnel as long as possible built, but that's purely because I think it would be pretty cool to have a proper tunnel in Adelaide to drive through..car guys would understand :wink:

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4279 Post by aceman » Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:36 pm

I completely agree, there is nothing whatsoever on south rd which should stand in the way of a motorway for nearly 1.5m adelaide residents. and those saying that an elevated rd would be an eyesore and shouldn't be built, try travelling to hundreds of other cities around the world and you'll see them everywhere. it's nothing new, sometimes it may be the only option. if u happen to live near south rd.. well it shouldn't really come as a surprise that there may possibly be some big structures going up.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4280 Post by Saltwater » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:12 am

The main point is that even for an elevated road, the section through Thebarton and Mile End is currently only two lanes each direction, so there is no room to put an elevated road unless entire strips of houses and business on one or both sides of the road are wiped out. By the time compulsory acquisition costs are taken into account, it would be interesting to see the economics of an elevated road vs trench option similar to Croydon, or tunnel options through this section.

While elevated roads around the world are very common, around the world cities are working to remove the eyesores that are largely a legacy of 60's and 70's planning decisions. In Glasgow the freeway cut the city in half, in Sydney's Circular Quay they would love to remove the elevated sections of the Cahill Expressway, Boston had the Big Dig, the list goes on. In Adelaide an elevated roadway through Mile End would scar the views from the city across to the beach, and would also be seen and heard from the western side of the parklands for generations to come, as a constant reminder of short term planning.

Personally living close to South Road at Mile End, I made a decision to buy based on government policy at the time stating "two short tunnels" through this section. If that resulted in some form of trench near where we are I decided we could probably live with that. More recently people will have made purchasing decisions based on a government stance of three options, one involving a trench and the other two through this section involving tunnels. If the government now does an about turn and wants to put an elevated highway through, many thousands of people will be marching through North Terrace on a daily basis.

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[U/C] Re: [U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4281 Post by Nort » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:57 am

rev wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Patrick_27 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:48 pm
Waewick wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:45 pm
Agreed. Sure there are some 100 year old buildings, if they are that important move them like has been done with other buildings.

Otherwise, get the dozer, it's progress time.
And you know what? If this kind of thinking were present 1,000/2,000 years ago, those aforementioned structures probably wouldn't exist. I'm not saying that a few cottages and a theatre building are on the same scale, but it's your types that will allow the destruction of any historic character this city has left in favour of what you call 'progress', it's a fairly one dimensional way of thinking.
Many more significant and important buildings have been destroyed over thousands of years of humanity, then the insignificant buildings that line South Road.

Nothing that lines South Road is significant enough in any way shape or form to stop the evolution of South Road in it's entirety into a motorway, something that should have happened half a century ago.
Nor is any of it significant enough to justify the extreme cost of tunnels. Although I'd like to see a tunnel as long as possible built, but that's purely because I think it would be pretty cool to have a proper tunnel in Adelaide to drive through..car guys would understand :wink:
The flow on consequences raise questions about that.

As one example, Henley Beach Road has a lot of businesses on it that rely on customers before and after shows. Take out the Thebby and you destroy a lot of those businesses as well.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4282 Post by rev » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:07 am

Still doesn't justify extreme costs for a tunnel, nor saving it.
If those businesses are relying on one show a week at Thebby to stay afloat, then those owners should either 1) pull their fingers out and build their business presence, or 3) get out of running a business.
The rest of the state shouldnt have to fork out more money so a handful of businesses can stay afloat. Its not the tax payers responsibility or obligation.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4283 Post by Nort » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:17 am

rev wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:07 am
Still doesn't justify extreme costs for a tunnel, nor saving it.
If those businesses are relying on one show a week at Thebby to stay afloat, then those owners should either 1) pull their fingers out and build their business presence, or 3) get out of running a business.
The rest of the state shouldnt have to fork out more money so a handful of businesses can stay afloat. Its not the tax payers responsibility or obligation.
The whole justification for the South Road works is to make things better for business, so it's entirely relevant to consider the negative effects of a development as well as the positive.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4284 Post by ozisnowman » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:13 am

What is scary is the artist impression of the lowered road/tunnel showning only 2 lanes in each direction.
Regardless of whether we have Tunnels, Tunnel/Lowered Road Combo or Lowered Road we need to continue the Torrens to Torrens section with 3 lanes in each direction otherwise it will be useless.

If we only get 2 lanes each way we may as well just build bridges over each intersection on not just South Road but also on Goodwood, Marion and Brighton/Tapleys roads as well.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4285 Post by Stryker » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:36 am

ozisnowman wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:13 am
What is scary is the artist impression of the lowered road/tunnel showning only 2 lanes in each direction.
Regardless of whether we have Tunnels, Tunnel/Lowered Road Combo or Lowered Road we need to continue the Torrens to Torrens section with 3 lanes in each direction otherwise it will be useless.
Couldn't agree more. Tunnels or not, the motorway needs to be continued with 3 lanes in each direction, especially this section.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4286 Post by d3v310per » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:27 pm

ozisnowman wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:13 am
What is scary is the artist impression of the lowered road/tunnel showning only 2 lanes in each direction.
Regardless of whether we have Tunnels, Tunnel/Lowered Road Combo or Lowered Road we need to continue the Torrens to Torrens section with 3 lanes in each direction otherwise it will be useless.

If we only get 2 lanes each way we may as well just build bridges over each intersection on not just South Road but also on Goodwood, Marion and Brighton/Tapleys roads as well.
Exactly! There would be little point in constructing tunnels to only accommodate 2 lanes of traffic in each direction. For a project of this size, you need to build-in some (even if short-term) future-proofing. Three lanes in each direction plus surface service roads should be the minimum going forward. Anything less than that will be a waste of money.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4287 Post by rev » Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:56 pm

Nort wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:17 am
rev wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:07 am
Still doesn't justify extreme costs for a tunnel, nor saving it.
If those businesses are relying on one show a week at Thebby to stay afloat, then those owners should either 1) pull their fingers out and build their business presence, or 3) get out of running a business.
The rest of the state shouldnt have to fork out more money so a handful of businesses can stay afloat. Its not the tax payers responsibility or obligation.
The whole justification for the South Road works is to make things better for business, so it's entirely relevant to consider the negative effects of a development as well as the positive.
Its to improve road transport and efficiency, it's not justified by some small cafes on Henley Beach road.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4288 Post by aceman » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:34 pm

Saltwater wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:12 am
The main point is that even for an elevated road, the section through Thebarton and Mile End is currently only two lanes each direction, so there is no room to put an elevated road unless entire strips of houses and business on one or both sides of the road are wiped out. By the time compulsory acquisition costs are taken into account, it would be interesting to see the economics of an elevated road vs trench option similar to Croydon, or tunnel options through this section.

While elevated roads around the world are very common, around the world cities are working to remove the eyesores that are largely a legacy of 60's and 70's planning decisions. In Glasgow the freeway cut the city in half, in Sydney's Circular Quay they would love to remove the elevated sections of the Cahill Expressway, Boston had the Big Dig, the list goes on. In Adelaide an elevated roadway through Mile End would scar the views from the city across to the beach, and would also be seen and heard from the western side of the parklands for generations to come, as a constant reminder of short term planning.

Personally living close to South Road at Mile End, I made a decision to buy based on government policy at the time stating "two short tunnels" through this section. If that resulted in some form of trench near where we are I decided we could probably live with that. More recently people will have made purchasing decisions based on a government stance of three options, one involving a trench and the other two through this section involving tunnels. If the government now does an about turn and wants to put an elevated highway through, many thousands of people will be marching through North Terrace on a daily basis.
u purchased based on government policy at a particular point in time?? so if the government decides on an elevated roadway then they need to be accountable to u and others who willingly deciding to purchase property next to a proposed motorway??

if u purchase property next to a proposed motorway that has already commenced then u are at the mercy of whatever option is chosen to get the job done. this could also result in compulsory acquisition. it's par for the course so to speak. a few residents can March through north terrace until the cows come home, it won't change the outcome. nearly 1.5m adelaide residents are far more important than a handful of local residents that don't want an elevated motorway near their house. they'll be quickly moved along and be told not to stand in the way being a hindrance.

i have a sneaky suspicion that this isn't going to end well for some.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4289 Post by claybro » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:06 pm

aceman wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:34 pm
Saltwater wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:12 am
The main point is that even for an elevated road, the section through Thebarton and Mile End is currently only two lanes each direction, so there is no room to put an elevated road unless entire strips of houses and business on one or both sides of the road are wiped out. By the time compulsory acquisition costs are taken into account, it would be interesting to see the economics of an elevated road vs trench option similar to Croydon, or tunnel options through this section.

While elevated roads around the world are very common, around the world cities are working to remove the eyesores that are largely a legacy of 60's and 70's planning decisions. In Glasgow the freeway cut the city in half, in Sydney's Circular Quay they would love to remove the elevated sections of the Cahill Expressway, Boston had the Big Dig, the list goes on. In Adelaide an elevated roadway through Mile End would scar the views from the city across to the beach, and would also be seen and heard from the western side of the parklands for generations to come, as a constant reminder of short term planning.

Personally living close to South Road at Mile End, I made a decision to buy based on government policy at the time stating "two short tunnels" through this section. If that resulted in some form of trench near where we are I decided we could probably live with that. More recently people will have made purchasing decisions based on a government stance of three options, one involving a trench and the other two through this section involving tunnels. If the government now does an about turn and wants to put an elevated highway through, many thousands of people will be marching through North Terrace on a daily basis.
u purchased based on government policy at a particular point in time?? so if the government decides on an elevated roadway then they need to be accountable to u and others who willingly deciding to purchase property next to a proposed motorway??

if u purchase property next to a proposed motorway that has already commenced then u are at the mercy of whatever option is chosen to get the job done. this could also result in compulsory acquisition. it's par for the course so to speak. a few residents can March through north terrace until the cows come home, it won't change the outcome. nearly 1.5m adelaide residents are far more important than a handful of local residents that don't want an elevated motorway near their house. they'll be quickly moved along and be told not to stand in the way being a hindrance.

i have a sneaky suspicion that this isn't going to end well for some.
Calm the farm everyone. There will not be an elevated expressway through Mile End/ Thebarton. The historic public buildings around the HB Rd intersection will Also not be demolished. The only question is, how much will be actual tunnel v open trench, and how long the Libs can drag this out, pretending to be doing something while actually only finishing what has already been started. As for Labor... tick toc guys, it will be election year soon enough, and you had better have a plan finalised for the election, either your quite workable affordable original plan, or something very close to it.

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[U/C] Re: North-South Motorway

#4290 Post by aceman » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:19 pm

can someone please explain how entry and exit points etc are going to work at say Henley beach road?? how on earth can u get on or off the motorway tunnel or whatever it is without having to demolish existing structures nearby?? sorry I'm having trouble getting my head around it..

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