News & Discussion: Trams

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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EBG
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4216 Post by EBG » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:34 pm

I work in the construction industry and as far as I am aware no one has been appointed to carry out any official or even unofficial testing of the King William St Bridge. The only reports seem to come from some uniformed journalists who assume, that because it is 60 years since trams crossed this bridge, then it 'obviously' would need strengthening. Secondly the Liberals did not kill off the tram up Norwood Parade it was the locals. who were initially all in favour of the tramway until it was pointed out that the trees in the middle of the Parade would have to go then every suddenly changed their minds.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4217 Post by claybro » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:17 am

rubberman wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:04 pm
[Shuz] wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:59 am
The North Adelaide extension is only expensive because of the work that needs to be done to the King William Street Bridge. I'm no expert and at face value I can see why the general public (and even myself) don't understand this to be the case given that trams went over the same bridge 70 years ago, however, we need to trust the rail experts who are the ones that know about the engineering and design specifications and standards that apply today.

Any extension also requires the construction of a new tram depot, which adds to the cost, because Glengowrie is at full capacity. Once these two costly hurdles have been overcome, then any future extensions should be much cheaper on a per kilometre basis.
When the bridge works were first mooted, I went to the DPTI website to check the design loads. The website stated that structures for both tram and railcar were to be designed using the same loads. I downloaded the pdf and have it still. I call BS. The bridge does not need to be able to take railcars. Nor will I trust rail "experts" who say it should. I drew the attention of the DPTI to this. The only reaction was to take the web page down.

Was the provision of a new depot included in the $200m? If so, that makes a difference for certain. However, I'd also like to see it confirmed, rather than get an unpleasant extra surprise.
It would almost seem the DPTI don't really like the tram work, can't really properly implement it, and therefore we get these over the top expenses built in so they can't be accused of not bringing it in on budget. There will eventually be a need to recommence all of this whichever government is in power, so let's hope a more experienced team is sourced to take the project. Problem is, as every other capital is currently either proposing or currently expanding their systems, there will be huge competition. It's a pity the last government didn't have a permanent team in place, anda comprehensive rollout plan to keep them going.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4218 Post by Ben » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:22 am

Very disappointing. If they are serious about a Commonwealth games in 2026 then a CBD loop in crucial and extension of the line past Adelaide Oval.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4219 Post by Saltwater » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:14 pm

If an issue exists around the tram depot, my suggestion is to look at an East-West extension from Henley Beach / Airport through to the Eastern end of the CBD. Where it goes beyond is an open question for those that live out east.

The benefit of the Henley Beach & airport options are:

- A depot could be built on surplus land at the airport
- An airport tram
- The line could pass an upgraded Mile End station, where people could transfer from trains for easier access into the Western end of the CBD and parklands

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4220 Post by how good is he » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:32 pm

Sounds plausible but how much demand is there for Henley Beach all year round. Also to get from airport to city and vice versa will take a long time. I think more a high speed express train direct from airport to city is the best option (possibly underground.)

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4221 Post by Westside » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:58 pm

how good is he wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:32 pm
Sounds plausible but how much demand is there for Henley Beach all year round. Also to get from airport to city and vice versa will take a long time. I think more a high speed express train direct from airport to city is the best option (possibly underground.)
What? Why?

How quick do you need the journey to be? The Jet Bus journey is already one of the quickest Airport to CBD journeys in Australia (mainly due to the distance between them, fo which we are so fortunate). So why would you need a high speed train? Secondly, the airport itself does not generate enough traffic to justify a dedicated point to point link. Even in Sydney - Australia's busiest airport - trains stop at intermediate stations and continue to the outer suburbs. The airport is just another stop along the line.

Any light rail proposal for the airport must take into consideration the captured traffic between there and the city on the way. This is why the ITLUP rated the Henley Beach Rd option much higher than the others - greater potential for capture along the route. The route between the City and Marion Rd is already congested with many bus routes diverging, so any light rail route will need to adequately replace the portion of these routes and hopefully speeds up the journey with parts of dedicated right of way and traffic signal priorities. That will be more than enough to speed up the journey and increase passengers on the line.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4222 Post by SRW » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:56 pm

Beyond fare hikes, privatisation and park-and-rides, it appears the Liberals have no plans for public transport infrastructure in this term with the possible exception of an O-Bahn 'extension' to Golden Grove (Gawler electrification is an ongoing project and doesn't count). Also no sign of them commencing investigations into an underground rail loop as promised before the election.
Keep Adelaide Weird

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4223 Post by Saltwater » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:13 pm

Airport rail lines in cities around the world are really only feasible where the airport itself is some distance from the city, like Hong Kong for example and to a lesser extent Sydney. Even in Singapore the airport line operates as a branch and doesn't see a lot of traffic compared to most other lines. When people are travelling with bags, most will take a taxi or hire car. In Adelaide this will be no different, especially with the airport so close to the city, and is why in my opinion its important to keep SDBD free of trams (and ideally connected to a north-south expressway tunnel, but that's another story).

A tram along Henley Beach road will collect people travelling between it and the city (and even the Thebbie, assuming its still there). Many of the passengers heading to the airport will work there or be meeting people there, rather than flying. But if some of the "spare" land around the airport (behind Harbourtown perhaps) could be used for the stabling, it would offset the cost of construction in that direction, and Adelaide gets an airport tram in the process that hopefully integrates with the rail lines at Mile End.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4224 Post by PeFe » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:49 pm

Saltwater wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:13 pm
A tram along Henley Beach road will collect people travelling between it and the city (and even the Thebbie, assuming its still there). Many of the passengers heading to the airport will work there or be meeting people there, rather than flying. But if some of the "spare" land around the airport (behind Harbourtown perhaps) could be used for the stabling, it would offset the cost of construction in that direction, and Adelaide gets an airport tram in the process that hopefully integrates with the rail lines at Mile End.
Not my experience using the bus to Adelaide Airport......backpackers are quite happy to lug luggage onto the bus for the journey to the airport, as are European tourists (who are used to travelling everywhere by public transport) and people like me who dont want to pay $40 for a taxi.

A tram to Adelaide Airport should "ignore " Mile End train station, neither a destination in its own right, nor a dense residential area.

If you want to transfer between the tram and the heavy rail system, then walk between Currie Street and North Terrace, not a long distance and even in large cities of the world with fantastic public transport you still have to walk....

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4225 Post by Waewick » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:21 pm

SRW wrote:Beyond fare hikes, privatisation and park-and-rides, it appears the Liberals have no plans for public transport infrastructure in this term with the possible exception of an O-Bahn 'extension' to Golden Grove (Gawler electrification is an ongoing project and doesn't count). Also no sign of them commencing investigations into an underground rail loop as promised before the election.
I'm still waiting for the infrastructure SA people to do something Image

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4226 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:55 pm

I think it's easy to overestimate the number of people travelling to and from the airport. The thing is, an articulated bus carries about as many people as a 737 or A320.

That said, in Adelaide the airport is also being developed as a business park. That would bring as many commuters as the airport. Add on IKEA and the shops nearby, I think the demand is there.

What is here? It looks like a good site for a new tram depot. https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2 ... 38.5153315
rubberman wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:04 pm
When the bridge works were first mooted, I went to the DPTI website to check the design loads. The website stated that structures for both tram and railcar were to be designed using the same loads. I downloaded the pdf and have it still. I call BS. The bridge does not need to be able to take railcars. Nor will I trust rail "experts" who say it should. I drew the attention of the DPTI to this. The only reaction was to take the web page down.
That's interesting, can you find it on the web archive? http://web.archive.org/

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4227 Post by Goodsy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:13 pm

1NEEDS2POST wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:55 pm

What is here? It looks like a good site for a new tram depot. https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2 ... 38.5153315

emergency runoff space for the runway, or space for future lengthening

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4228 Post by ml69 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:58 pm

Goodsy wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:54 pm
what a shock

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sou ... dde3ea2543
Adelaide City Loop and North Adelaide tram plans shelved until after 2022 state election
Paul Starick — Exclusive, Chief Reporter, Sunday Mail (SA)
July 13, 2019 11:00pm
Subscriber only

City loop and North Adelaide tram extensions detailed in a major Liberal state election policy are being shelved until at least after the next poll in 2022.

Lines to O’Connell St and linking the East End, Central Market and Entertainment Centre via North and East terraces and Hutt, Angas and Gouger streets were outlined in the Liberal public transport policy taken to last year’s election.

Transport Minister Stephan Knoll last week told the Sunday Mail the extensions were definitely being considered and the Government was open to the idea in the longer term.

The Sunday Mail has since been told no tram extensions would be considered by Cabinet before the next election in March, 2022.

It also is understood they would not be funded by planned outsourcing of train and tram services, savings from which would be ploughed into increasing existing service frequency.

Asked about the prospect of expanding the tram network, Mr Knoll said: “The two ideas that we’re still very open to are the city loop … and the extension to O’Connell St (North Adelaide) are things that we’re definitely considering.

“We think that trams are really good people movers. But they do their best work when they actually help connect short-range communities.”

Mr Knoll last month revealed the Government and Adelaide City Council would develop a 20-year transport strategy to “inform future transport projects in and around” the CBD.

He told the Sunday Mail trains were most effective at moving large numbers of people from the suburbs, while the city tram extension had helped movement around the CBD.

“We think if you extend through the city or connect the city it helps generate investment … and I definitely think if you stuck it up O’Connell St that would drive investment,” he said.

“ … That’s definitely an idea that we are very open to — it’s just not on in the short term.”

Labor treasury spokesman Stephen Mullighan said delaying tram extensions would be a huge blow for North Adelaide’s economy and the public transport system.

“It’s been proven in Adelaide that trams have a really important role, not only in boosting public transport patronage but also in revitalising urban areas,” he said.

Labor’s 2018 election pledges included a $259 tram extension to North Adelaide and $279 million line to Norwood Parade but the latter was scuttled by the victorious Liberals.

Lord Mayor Sandy Verschoor said: “I have a good working relationship with Minister Knoll and he knows that a CBD tram loop and extensions to key inner-city areas, such as North Adelaide, remains high on our list of priorities.

“We know tram networks boost economic growth and make it easier for residents and visitors to move around the city, so I’ll continue to advocate for the State Government to fund a city loop.”
Even if we don’t start any construction until after the 2022 election, I can’t see why we can’t do the feasibility planning and detailed design on the preferred route over the next 2.5 years? Surely that isn’t going to blow the budget if the Liberals think that the city loop and North Adelaide extension are worthy ideas?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4229 Post by ml69 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:00 am

Goodsy wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:54 pm
what a shock

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sou ... dde3ea2543
Adelaide City Loop and North Adelaide tram plans shelved until after 2022 state election
Paul Starick — Exclusive, Chief Reporter, Sunday Mail (SA)
July 13, 2019 11:00pm
Subscriber only

City loop and North Adelaide tram extensions detailed in a major Liberal state election policy are being shelved until at least after the next poll in 2022.

Lines to O’Connell St and linking the East End, Central Market and Entertainment Centre via North and East terraces and Hutt, Angas and Gouger streets were outlined in the Liberal public transport policy taken to last year’s election.

Transport Minister Stephan Knoll last week told the Sunday Mail the extensions were definitely being considered and the Government was open to the idea in the longer term.

The Sunday Mail has since been told no tram extensions would be considered by Cabinet before the next election in March, 2022.

It also is understood they would not be funded by planned outsourcing of train and tram services, savings from which would be ploughed into increasing existing service frequency.

Asked about the prospect of expanding the tram network, Mr Knoll said: “The two ideas that we’re still very open to are the city loop … and the extension to O’Connell St (North Adelaide) are things that we’re definitely considering.

“We think that trams are really good people movers. But they do their best work when they actually help connect short-range communities.”

Mr Knoll last month revealed the Government and Adelaide City Council would develop a 20-year transport strategy to “inform future transport projects in and around” the CBD.

He told the Sunday Mail trains were most effective at moving large numbers of people from the suburbs, while the city tram extension had helped movement around the CBD.

“We think if you extend through the city or connect the city it helps generate investment … and I definitely think if you stuck it up O’Connell St that would drive investment,” he said.

“ … That’s definitely an idea that we are very open to — it’s just not on in the short term.”

Labor treasury spokesman Stephen Mullighan said delaying tram extensions would be a huge blow for North Adelaide’s economy and the public transport system.

“It’s been proven in Adelaide that trams have a really important role, not only in boosting public transport patronage but also in revitalising urban areas,” he said.

Labor’s 2018 election pledges included a $259 tram extension to North Adelaide and $279 million line to Norwood Parade but the latter was scuttled by the victorious Liberals.

Lord Mayor Sandy Verschoor said: “I have a good working relationship with Minister Knoll and he knows that a CBD tram loop and extensions to key inner-city areas, such as North Adelaide, remains high on our list of priorities.

“We know tram networks boost economic growth and make it easier for residents and visitors to move around the city, so I’ll continue to advocate for the State Government to fund a city loop.”
Even if we don’t start any construction until after the 2022 election, why can’t we do the feasibility planning and detailed design on the preferred route over the next 2.5 years? Surely that isn’t going to blow the budget if the Liberals think that the city loop and North Adelaide extension are worthy ideas?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4230 Post by Patrick_27 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:00 am

Why are people discussing building an entire tram-line to the Airport for the sake of having a new depot? The AdeLINK proposal (if I recall correctly) had touted a depot for Thebarton... Which makes the most sense, you could easily tuck a relatively large depot behind the abundance of industrial land becoming available along Port Road and still allow for low density residential to go up around (i.e. at the back of the Coca Cola factory). Why spend many more hundreds of millions of dollars when you could do that for under the hundred million mark...

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