News & Discussion: Trams

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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claybro
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4411 Post by claybro » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:04 pm

Haso wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:52 am
.
Something for our transport minister… who do not like trams and do not see any future for them..

LIGHT RAIL AND TRAM: THE EUROPEAN OUTLOOK NOVEMBER 2019
https://www.uitp.org/sites/default/file ... urope2.pdf

.
Given the lack of any NEW transport plans so far, it won't even cross their desktops. With the lack of PT infrastructure announcements, outsourcing, and even cuts, one could almost forgive the Libs if they had made great inroads into revitalising the state economy... but not so. Despite all the lack of vision and actual new projects the economy in SA appears to be doing just what it always does... bumble along at mediocre. Let's hope if Labour are in at next election, they get a bit more momentum with implementing their vision of an interconnected CBD and denser inner suburbs, which might in turn get the economy and mood of the state humming.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4412 Post by d3v310per » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:12 pm

claybro wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:04 pm
Haso wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:52 am
.
Something for our transport minister… who do not like trams and do not see any future for them..

LIGHT RAIL AND TRAM: THE EUROPEAN OUTLOOK NOVEMBER 2019
https://www.uitp.org/sites/default/file ... urope2.pdf

.
Given the lack of any NEW transport plans so far, it won't even cross their desktops. With the lack of PT infrastructure announcements, outsourcing, and even cuts, one could almost forgive the Libs if they had made great inroads into revitalising the state economy... but not so. Despite all the lack of vision and actual new projects the economy in SA appears to be doing just what it always does... bumble along at mediocre. Let's hope if Labour are in at next election, they get a bit more momentum with implementing their vision of an interconnected CBD and denser inner suburbs, which might in turn get the economy and mood of the state humming.
Totally agree ... PT seems to be a politician's afterthought in Adelaide. There should be, at the very least, an on-going infrastructure spend to complete a city loop or connections to North Adelaide/Prospect/Norwood/Unley or whatever stacks up. Also, Adelaide's trains are woefully inadequate ... many stations too close together and infrequent services thanks, in part, to road level crossings that should have been grade separated years ago. But now I'm clearly off-topic...

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4413 Post by Spotto » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:29 pm

d3v310per wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:12 pm
Totally agree ... PT seems to be a politician's afterthought in Adelaide. There should be, at the very least, an on-going infrastructure spend to complete a city loop or connections to North Adelaide/Prospect/Norwood/Unley or whatever stacks up.
Other than the no-brainer City Loop and North Adelaide extensions that should but won't happen, what are people's thoughts on extensions to Norwood Town Hall, Prospect Road and Unley Road (or maybe further to Mitcham Station and Civic Centre)? An extension from the Entertainment Centre to Hindmarsh Stadium for operation on match days only would also be a very useful addition (either stop in Port Road median or continue single track down Milner Street median).

Norwood Parade, like O'Connell Street, is a popular shopping and eatery strip that would benefit from an easy-to-use and fast connection from the CBD, in simple terms it expands the reach of CBD-goers who might decide to hop on a tram to North Adelaide or Norwood instead of going into the CBD. Norwood Town/Concert Hall is also a popular performance venue. Putting complaints about trees aside, having the trams on Norwood Parade could discourage cars to use it as a throroughfare, and people that would've previously used their cars to visit Norwood Parade could instead take the tram, equalling less vehicular conjection and noise on the street.

Newcastle and Canberra have started building their own tram systems, if we do nothing they'll probably end up with a more expansive network than we currently have in the next 5-10 years. Canberra is actively investigating/planning their first extension.

One possible ideal system would be:
  • Glenelg to North Adelaide
  • Hindmarsh Stadium/Ent Ctr to City Loop
  • "Eastern Loop" (anti-clockwise via North Tce - the existing turn onto KWS is prioritised for an anti-clockwise route - KWS, Halifax, Hutt, East Tce) to Norwood Parade
  • maybe also reinstate the City Shuttle (RAH to South Terrace, weekdays) depending on demand
Last edited by Spotto on Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4414 Post by [Shuz] » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:06 pm

In a perfect world, there should be a 'Light Rail Investment Fund' with a modest budget of about $100m per annum to cover the cost of new extensions and vehicles. Over ten years ($1b total investment) would be broken down into ten projects, with each extension is similar in project size and scope with two or three additional stops and/or up to 2km in length. Using the extensions to the East End and Festival Theatre as a recent price guide which came in at $80m If memory serves me correctly.

Each year could then see the following completed (in no specific order).

- Extension from Adelaide Entertainment Centre to Hindmarsh Stadium via Milner Street.

- Extension from Moseley Sqaure to Holdfast Shores Marina via Colley Terrace. (take the stop out Moseley Square itself) and replace with a stop at the corner of Jetty Road and Colley Terrace.

- Norwood Stage 1 Extension from Botanic Gardens to Kent Town via Rundle Road/Street and The Parade West.

- Norwood Stage 2 Extension via the Parade from The Parade West to Osmond Terrace.

- Norwood Stage 3 Extension via the Parade from Osmond Terrace to Portrush Road.

- North Adelaide Stage 1 via King William Road from Festival Theatre to Ward Street.

- North Adelaide Stage 2 via O'Connell Street from Ward Street to Piccadilly Cinema.

- Walkerville Stage 1 via Sir Edwin Smith Avenue and Melbourne Street to Park Terrace.

- Walkerville Stage 2 via Park Terrace and Walkerville Terrace to Smith Street.

- Hyde Park Stage 1 via King William Road from Greenhill Road to Park Street.

- Hyde Park Stage 2 via King William Road and Victoria Street to Cross Road.

Cumatively this would then consist of three seperate lines: North Adelaide to Hyde Park.
Glenelg to Walkerville.
Hindmarsh Stadium to Norwood.
Any views and opinions expressed are of my own, and do not reflect the views or opinions of any organisation of which I have an affiliation with.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4415 Post by SBD » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:42 pm

The Entertainment Centre has a large car park that is otherwise underused during weekdays, ideal to double up as park and ride. Is there an opportunity to use a similar facility somewhere up The Parade? I can't see a car park near Norwood Oval, nor space to put one anywhere near the Portrush Road intersection (unless Peregrine changes its building plans and decided to provide one).

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4416 Post by Spotto » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:10 pm

[Shuz] wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:06 pm
In a perfect world, there should be a 'Light Rail Investment Fund' with a modest budget of about $100m per annum to cover the cost of new extensions and vehicles. Over ten years ($1b total investment) would be broken down into ten projects, with each extension is similar in project size and scope with two or three additional stops and/or up to 2km in length. Using the extensions to the East End and Festival Theatre as a recent price guide which came in at $80m If memory serves me correctly.
A great idea not just for the trams, but for any kind of regular/progressive infrastructure project.
[Shuz] wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:06 pm
Cumatively this would then consist of three seperate lines: North Adelaide to Hyde Park.
Glenelg to Walkerville.
Hindmarsh Stadium to Norwood.
Considering all the money that was spent on upgrading King William Road at Hyde Park to be more people-friendly, I doubt they'll tear it all up again. On top of that the most feasible system separates cars and trams and KWR is too narrow for the new up-on-the-kerb al fresco or parking, plus separate lanes for cars and trams. Having cars and trams share the same lanes like Jetty Road is not ideal.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4417 Post by citywatcher » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:34 pm

A city loop and extension to North Adelaide is a no brainer
The others I doubt very much
They are close to the city and well served by regular bus services
In the future if these areas become denser , maybe
Agree though it will need to be a Labor Govt that does it

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4418 Post by Eurostar » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:59 am

Considering most people don't actually have to go to the city but suburb to suburb I think it'll be wise to look at suburban tram lines.
For example:

1) Gawler to Gawler Central Line via 19th Street, Adelaide Road, Murray Street. *Possible extension to Willaston pub.

2) Brighton to Flinders University via Sturt Road, University Drive.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4419 Post by Alyx » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:29 pm

Eurostar wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:59 am
Considering most people don't actually have to go to the city but suburb to suburb I think it'll be wise to look at suburban tram lines.
For example:

1) Gawler to Gawler Central Line via 19th Street, Adelaide Road, Murray Street. *Possible extension to Willaston pub.

2) Brighton to Flinders University via Sturt Road, University Drive.
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4420 Post by ml69 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:27 pm

citywatcher wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:34 pm
A city loop and extension to North Adelaide is a no brainer
The others I doubt very much
They are close to the city and well served by regular bus services
In the future if these areas become denser , maybe
Agree though it will need to be a Labor Govt that does it

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Agree with citywatcher here .... I cannot see the point of these short extensions into the inner suburbs. If you live anywhere beyond/further than the limited length of the tram line, you still need to catch the bus.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4421 Post by Eurostar » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:59 pm

Of course before any extensions of our tram network there needs to be a new tram depot

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4422 Post by claybro » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:54 pm

ml69 wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:27 pm
citywatcher wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:34 pm
A city loop and extension to North Adelaide is a no brainer
The others I doubt very much
They are close to the city and well served by regular bus services
In the future if these areas become denser , maybe
Agree though it will need to be a Labor Govt that does it

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Agree with citywatcher here .... I cannot see the point of these short extensions into the inner suburbs. If you live anywhere beyond/further than the limited length of the tram line, you still need to catch the bus.
You are looking at trams in the Australian context of commuter lines though. Shorter lines into inner suburban hubs such as Norwood, walkerville, Prospect etc, would allow significant urbanisation of those places, with much higher population densitys, better retail/government services, and increase the population that is within an easy ride to the CBD, therefore also increasing the use of the CBD. Trams do this in a way buses just don't. The reasons are too many to go into in this post, but it is well studied worldwide, and one of the reasons light rail is being rolled out in record amounts worldwide.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4423 Post by Aidan » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:22 pm

Eurostar wrote:Considering most people don't actually have to go to the city but suburb to suburb I think it'll be wise to look at suburban tram lines.
For example:

1) Gawler to Gawler Central Line via 19th Street, Adelaide Road, Murray Street. *Possible extension to Willaston pub.
What would trams do on that route that buses wouldn't?
2) Brighton to Flinders University via Sturt Road, University Drive.
Have you forgotten how steep University Drive is?
Also, why Brighton? The existing buses that way aren't particularly full.
IMO it would be better to construct bus lanes on Sturt Road (which would require widening for part of the length).
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4424 Post by SBD » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:00 am

Aidan wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:22 pm
Eurostar wrote:Considering most people don't actually have to go to the city but suburb to suburb I think it'll be wise to look at suburban tram lines.
For example:

1) Gawler to Gawler Central Line via 19th Street, Adelaide Road, Murray Street. *Possible extension to Willaston pub.
What would trams do on that route that buses wouldn't?
2) Brighton to Flinders University via Sturt Road, University Drive.
Have you forgotten how steep University Drive is?
Also, why Brighton? The existing buses that way aren't particularly full.
IMO it would be better to construct bus lanes on Sturt Road (which would require widening for part of the length).
That is the route the horse trams once used in Gawler, so I guess it would do exactly the same as every other tram route used to do before they were ripped up, and as every new tram route that replaces buses does. The challenge now is that Murray Street is already very congested. Would a street-running tram make it better or worse?

Is University Drive any steeper than the tram overpass at Goodwood? Trams seem to be able to handle steeper grades than trains do.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#4425 Post by Aidan » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:16 am

Eurostar wrote:If Sealink did get to run the trams they could run the 248 as a feeder between Marion Centre and Plympton Tram Stop. Kilometres saved by not running 248s between Plympton Tram Stop and City could be used elsewhere to run short running of the 100 between Plympton and Arndale or between Plympton and Glen Osmond.
Not such a good idea, as the trams are already running pretty full. Also the 248 serves different parts of the City from the tram and M44, and it serves locally significant destinations along Anzac Highway: the shops at Kuralta Park, the offices of Keswick, and soon the new Krautland on the old Le Cornu site.
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