News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[Nort]

It's hardly political "corruption" (or whatever conspiracy you want) that stops nuclear energy either, its public opinion. https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/n ... australia/

Although it is split down the middle between the yes and no side it would become a political weapon that Labour would probably want to avoid right now

It's also expensive as hell. As for being a political weapon? Well the Coalition's record on the NBN, Murray Darling Basin Plan, Snowy Mk2, Inland Rail, previous energy policy, submarine procurement tells me that anyone who wants nuclear power would be ill advised to vote for a party that couldn't build a hydro scheme...or a rail line. If you want a completed complex project done, you'd be nuts to vote for a political party whose record on infrastructure is so bad, it couldn't build the car parks it rorted. Peter Duttno is talking about it, sure. However, there's simply no way that he or the Coalition has the ability to make it happen. In fact, voting for the Coalition is a good way to ensure it won't happen.

Which brings me to the whole hopelessness of the case for nuclear in Australia. The Greens and Labor won't build it, and the Coalition can't. If they couldn't build a hydro plant, they sure as heck have zero chance of building nuclear.

garbage

if it weren't viable we wouldn't be mining uranium and exporting it overseas

its entirely political

Interesting points, I'd love to see your overseas examples, can you link to any of the recent nuclear plant builds viable without heavy government subsidy? Or those that have subsidy, and when that is taken into account come out with a reasonable power price tag?

[mattblack]

it is when you realise they're now reliant on 'renewables' because of a shortfall from traditional energy sources after they stupidly closed their nuclear power generation in the previous decade

Germany is not an economic basket case.....you provide no economic analysis from any independent source to back that up.

And Germany did not close its nuclear plants last decade.....the last one closed April 15 2023.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/18/germany ... ghast.html

meanwhile in South Australia we have one of the highest reserves of uranium in the world but we're not allowed to use it because of political corruption...even Mali floated the idea but was shut down promptly by Albo

What corruption ? Dont make such outrageous comments without proof.....it just demeans this forum. Sensational Adelaide is supposed to be a step above yobs in the front bar expressing opinions formed in the stupour of ignorance.

And Australia has a legal ban on nuclear energy, even if Mali wanted nuclear power the ban has to overturned at a federal level.

And Australia exports uranium in huge quantities at a $$$$ price.

And on to more positive things.......South Australia achieved another first on Sunday producing more than demand power from rooftop solar....not the first time but getting bigger and better. Yes Sunday is the low demand electricity day but this is a foretaste of future events......ie need for more batteries, need to heat water in the middle of the day instead of the middle of the night, and need to charge electric cars during during daily solar excess.

From Renew Economy

Solar reaches new peak of 126.7 pct of South Australia demand, NSW coal at record low

The combination of rooftop solar and large scale solar set yet another new record over the weekend, accounting for 126.7 per cent of South Australia state demand at its peak at 12.55pm (AEST) on Sunday.

The new benchmark, sourced from data analysts GPE NEMLog2, comes just a week after rooftop solar alone accounted for more than 101 per cent of state demand.

On Sunday, rooftop solar reached a peak of around 95 per cent, with utility scale solar providing the rest. It reached a peak of 31.6 per cent, a record for the state. Excess power is either exported to Victoria or stored in the state’s growing portfolio of household batteries.

That high share for large scale solar is unusual because it is often turned off in the face of negative prices. The combination of large scale and rooftop solar first exceeded 100 per cent of state demand in 2020, but has not grown so rapidly in recent years because of the growing number of negative pricing intervals.



It wasn’t the only record to tumble in the last couple of days, with rooftop solar PV continuing to make a mess of the NSW coal generators’ business plans as it set new output records and pushed coal output to new lows.

Rest of the article discussing NSW.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-reach ... ecord-low/

oh please

even AP is saying it and they're the media source all the regional government approved media of the western world get their 'facts' from

Germany went from envy of the world to the worst-performing major developed economy. What happened?

https://apnews.com/article/germany-econ ... cd85ae84ed

Hey look, abc did 10 seconds of research without looking deeper

IMF predicts Germany to be 'worst performing' major economy of 2023
AFP/The Local

IMF predicts Germany to be 'worst performing' major economy of 2023

Dark clouds over the headquarters of Deutsche Bank in Frankfurt am Main.

Germany will suffer a deeper recession than previously thought, the International Monetary Fund said Tuesday, predicting that Europe's traditional growth engine will be the worst performing major economy in 2023.

The German economy, buffeted by high inflation and a manufacturing slump, is now expected to shrink by 0.5 percent this year, the IMF said. It had forecast a 0.3-percent contraction back in July.

Europe's largest economy will be the only one of the Group of Seven rich nations not to grow this year, the updated forecasts confirm.

Germany faces multiple headwinds including "weakness in interest-rate-sensitive sectors and slower trading-partner demand", the IMF said in its latest report.

The country - which tipped into a recession at the start of 2023 and stagnated in the second quarter - is headed for another "slight economic contraction" in the second half of the year, according to the IMF.

The Washington-based institute sees Germany rebounding in 2024, but downgraded its expectations to 0.9 percent growth from July's 1.3 percent.

Germany's troubles are set to act as a drag on eurozone growth, with the IMF slightly lowering its 2023 forecast for the 20-nation currency club to 0.7 percent growth.

There was better news for eurozone heavyweight France where a "catch-up in industrial production and external demand" led the IMF to predict 1.0 percent expansion for 2023, up from 0.8 percent previously.

But fellow G7 member Italy, grappling with inflation stubbornly above the eurozone average, saw its growth prediction slashed by 0.4 percentage points to 0.7 percent.

Sick man?

Elevated energy prices linked to Russia's war in Ukraine, higher borrowing costs as a result of the European Central Bank's interest rate hikes to cool inflation and weaker demand from China are all taking a toll on export powerhouse Germany.

The end of cheap Russian gas imports has rattled Germany's energy-intensive sectors in particular, provoking much hand-wringing about a potential de-industrialisation as companies mull whether to move production abroad.

At the same time, the European Union's most populous nation is confronting structural problems such as an ageing society and a shortage of skilled workers.

The anxiety has prompted some media outlets to speculate about Germany's re-emergence as "the sick man of Europe", a label from the late 1990s when the country grappled with the costly fallout of reunification.

According to media reports, Berlin will say it now expects the economy to shrink by 0.4 percent in 2023, a sharp downgrade from the spring forecast of 0.4 percent expansion.

Economy Minister Robert Habeck has said urgent action was needed to exit the doldrums. "We need to remove obstacles to investment, clear out the jungle of bureaucracy and make things easier for entrepreneurs," he said late last month.

Hoping to boost those efforts, the government has unveiled a €211 billion "climate and transformation fund" to support companies investing in modernisation and boost the green energy transition.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz has also announced a "Germany pact" that includes measures to speed up digitisation and approval processes for construction projects.

ECB board member Isabel Schnabel, who is German, said the country's "long-term potential growth" hinged on how it tackled the various challenges.

"Germany has managed to transform itself in the past and I am confident that it will be able to do so today," she told a Croatian newspaper last week.

Berenberg bank economist Holger Schmieding cautioned against underestimating Germany's resilience. The nation's "hidden champions" of often highly specialised small and medium-sized companies had a track record of withstanding shocks and finding new opportunities, he wrote in a recent analyst note.

"The current wave of pessimism is far overdone," he said.

Germany's issues are many, including an energy shock, but there is no way that you can simply pin everything on transition to renewables and the destruction of an oil pipeline by terrorists (russia by the way).

I'm unsure how you can keep posting this stuff with a straight face.

[rubberman]

It's hardly political "corruption" (or whatever conspiracy you want) that stops nuclear energy either, its public opinion. https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/n ... australia/

Although it is split down the middle between the yes and no side it would become a political weapon that Labour would probably want to avoid right now

It's also expensive as hell. As for being a political weapon? Well the Coalition's record on the NBN, Murray Darling Basin Plan, Snowy Mk2, Inland Rail, previous energy policy, submarine procurement tells me that anyone who wants nuclear power would be ill advised to vote for a party that couldn't build a hydro scheme...or a rail line. If you want a completed complex project done, you'd be nuts to vote for a political party whose record on infrastructure is so bad, it couldn't build the car parks it rorted. Peter Duttno is talking about it, sure. However, there's simply no way that he or the Coalition has the ability to make it happen. In fact, voting for the Coalition is a good way to ensure it won't happen.

Which brings me to the whole hopelessness of the case for nuclear in Australia. The Greens and Labor won't build it, and the Coalition can't. If they couldn't build a hydro plant, they sure as heck have zero chance of building nuclear.

garbage

if it weren't viable we wouldn't be mining uranium and exporting it overseas

its entirely political

Assuming you are right. Then, the ALP and Greens won't build it. The Coalition can't build it. The Coalition's record is: NBN, FAIL. Murray Darling Basin Plan, FAIL. Inland Rail, FAIL. Snowy Mk2, FAIL. Submarines, FAIL. The idea that the Coalition could build a nuclear plant, given that it couldn't build a hydro plant, is hilarious.

So. There's no party in the country that can or will build a nuclear plant. Private enterprise has shown no interest. And in the case of AGL, actively discounted it.

You are wasting your time. Of course, it's your time to waste. I have no objection to seeing you

[abc]

Germany is not an economic basket case.....you provide no economic analysis from any independent source to back that up.

And Germany did not close its nuclear plants last decade.....the last one closed April 15 2023.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/18/germany ... ghast.html



What corruption ? Dont make such outrageous comments without proof.....it just demeans this forum. Sensational Adelaide is supposed to be a step above yobs in the front bar expressing opinions formed in the stupour of ignorance.

And Australia has a legal ban on nuclear energy, even if Mali wanted nuclear power the ban has to overturned at a federal level.

And Australia exports uranium in huge quantities at a $$$$ price.

And on to more positive things.......South Australia achieved another first on Sunday producing more than demand power from rooftop solar....not the first time but getting bigger and better. Yes Sunday is the low demand electricity day but this is a foretaste of future events......ie need for more batteries, need to heat water in the middle of the day instead of the middle of the night, and need to charge electric cars during during daily solar excess.

From Renew Economy

oh please

even AP is saying it and they're the media source all the regional government approved media of the western world get their 'facts' from

Germany went from envy of the world to the worst-performing major developed economy. What happened?

https://apnews.com/article/germany-econ ... cd85ae84ed

Hey look, abc did 10 seconds of research without looking deeper

IMF predicts Germany to be 'worst performing' major economy of 2023
AFP/The Local

IMF predicts Germany to be 'worst performing' major economy of 2023

Dark clouds over the headquarters of Deutsche Bank in Frankfurt am Main.

Germany will suffer a deeper recession than previously thought, the International Monetary Fund said Tuesday, predicting that Europe's traditional growth engine will be the worst performing major economy in 2023.

The German economy, buffeted by high inflation and a manufacturing slump, is now expected to shrink by 0.5 percent this year, the IMF said. It had forecast a 0.3-percent contraction back in July.

Europe's largest economy will be the only one of the Group of Seven rich nations not to grow this year, the updated forecasts confirm.

Germany faces multiple headwinds including "weakness in interest-rate-sensitive sectors and slower trading-partner demand", the IMF said in its latest report.

The country - which tipped into a recession at the start of 2023 and stagnated in the second quarter - is headed for another "slight economic contraction" in the second half of the year, according to the IMF.

The Washington-based institute sees Germany rebounding in 2024, but downgraded its expectations to 0.9 percent growth from July's 1.3 percent.

Germany's troubles are set to act as a drag on eurozone growth, with the IMF slightly lowering its 2023 forecast for the 20-nation currency club to 0.7 percent growth.

There was better news for eurozone heavyweight France where a "catch-up in industrial production and external demand" led the IMF to predict 1.0 percent expansion for 2023, up from 0.8 percent previously.

But fellow G7 member Italy, grappling with inflation stubbornly above the eurozone average, saw its growth prediction slashed by 0.4 percentage points to 0.7 percent.

Sick man?

Elevated energy prices linked to Russia's war in Ukraine, higher borrowing costs as a result of the European Central Bank's interest rate hikes to cool inflation and weaker demand from China are all taking a toll on export powerhouse Germany.

The end of cheap Russian gas imports has rattled Germany's energy-intensive sectors in particular, provoking much hand-wringing about a potential de-industrialisation as companies mull whether to move production abroad.

At the same time, the European Union's most populous nation is confronting structural problems such as an ageing society and a shortage of skilled workers.

The anxiety has prompted some media outlets to speculate about Germany's re-emergence as "the sick man of Europe", a label from the late 1990s when the country grappled with the costly fallout of reunification.

According to media reports, Berlin will say it now expects the economy to shrink by 0.4 percent in 2023, a sharp downgrade from the spring forecast of 0.4 percent expansion.

Economy Minister Robert Habeck has said urgent action was needed to exit the doldrums. "We need to remove obstacles to investment, clear out the jungle of bureaucracy and make things easier for entrepreneurs," he said late last month.

Hoping to boost those efforts, the government has unveiled a €211 billion "climate and transformation fund" to support companies investing in modernisation and boost the green energy transition.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz has also announced a "Germany pact" that includes measures to speed up digitisation and approval processes for construction projects.

ECB board member Isabel Schnabel, who is German, said the country's "long-term potential growth" hinged on how it tackled the various challenges.

"Germany has managed to transform itself in the past and I am confident that it will be able to do so today," she told a Croatian newspaper last week.

Berenberg bank economist Holger Schmieding cautioned against underestimating Germany's resilience. The nation's "hidden champions" of often highly specialised small and medium-sized companies had a track record of withstanding shocks and finding new opportunities, he wrote in a recent analyst note.

"The current wave of pessimism is far overdone," he said.

Germany's issues are many, including an energy shock, but there is no way that you can simply pin everything on transition to renewables and the destruction of an oil pipeline by terrorists (russia by the way).

I'm unsure how you can keep posting this stuff with a straight face.

what a moronic take

Russia didn't blow up their own pipeline you imbecile

show me one piece of evidence that backs up your assertion go on, entertain me

[mattblack]

Name calling now. What are you, 10 years old?

Never said I did know who blew up the pipeline, just one of many theories;

From Politico
www.politico.eu

Who blew up Nord Stream?

There are lots of theories. They’re all full of holes.

Nearly six months on from the subsea gas pipeline explosions, which sent geopolitical shockwaves around the world in September, there is still no conclusive answer to the question of who blew up Nord Stream.

Some were quick to place the blame squarely at Russia’s door — citing its record of hybrid warfare and a possible motive of intimidation, in the midst of a bitter economic war with Europe over gas supply.

But half a year has passed without any firm evidence for this — or any other explanation — being produced by the ongoing investigations of authorities in three European countries.

Since the day of the attack, four states — Russia, the U.S., Ukraine and the U.K. — have been publicly blamed for the explosions, with varying degrees of evidence.

I hope you are entertained. I expect my apology is in the mail. I won't be holding my breath.

Talking about evidence and entertaining people, I notice you didn't actually address the nature of the posts and you still haven't posted anything in regards to evidence when you stated that SA having the highest power prices in the world.

[Aidan]

All of you please note:
• We don’t know who blew up Nordstream2. Only Sweden and whoever did it know.
• The evidence appears to show the pipe was blown up from the inside, but we don’t know how reliable or trustworthy that evidence is.
• ‘Twas an act of economic sabotage not terrorism. There are instances where the line between the two is blurred, but this is not one of them.
• If it was done by Russia, it’s possible (though unlikely) it was done by partisans rather than the state. Sweden would not be able to tell the difference.
• Putin has ordered false flag operations against Russia before.
• More concerning are recent reports of serious damage to the Finland—Estonia gas pipeline.

Also, costs aren’t the same everywhere. Just because nuclear power is economically viable in some parts of Europe doesn’t mean it would be here.

[cocoiadrop]

How is it at all relevant who or what blew up nordstream?

[rev]

Also, costs aren’t the same everywhere. Just because nuclear power is economically viable in some parts of Europe doesn’t mean it would be here.

True.
A big factor in things being more expensive in Australia, is we bloody import so much.

[mattblack]

How is it at all relevant who or what blew up nordstream?

It's not. abc is just acting like a child because he's been challenged on a comment he made about SA power prices and he doesn't like it, so he's chucked his toys out of the pram and grasping at straws.

If you get challenged on this forum back it up because from my understanding there are some very well informed people on here and generally we all want inside and current information and not just throw away lines that are ill informed and incorrect.

[Aidan]

Also, costs aren’t the same everywhere. Just because nuclear power is economically viable in some parts of Europe doesn’t mean it would be here.

True.
A big factor in things being more expensive in Australia, is we bloody import so much.

Actually the reverse is the case! Australia was a very expensive country when it tried to do everything itself. Now things are generally cheaper because our producers are competing with imports.

The main cause of the recent inflation was deglobalization due to the war in Ukraine.

[claybro]

Also, costs aren’t the same everywhere. Just because nuclear power is economically viable in some parts of Europe doesn’t mean it would be here.

True.
A big factor in things being more expensive in Australia, is we bloody import so much.

Actually the reverse is the case! Australia was a very expensive country when it tried to do everything itself. Now things are generally cheaper because our producers are competing with imports.

The main cause of the recent inflation was deglobalization due to the war in Ukraine.

Which brings us back to energy. If countries in Europe weren’t so reliant on Russian gas, there would not be so much competition for energy, which kind of puts a lie to the fact that the world will be relying on renewable energy and battery storage any time soon. Without Russian Gas, and French nuclear, the whole thing starts to fall apart. Germany, one of the worlds largest investors in renewables, has just had to complete a new LNG import facility just to keep the country running. No cheap power flooding in from solar and wind for Europe.

[rubberman]

True.
A big factor in things being more expensive in Australia, is we bloody import so much.

Actually the reverse is the case! Australia was a very expensive country when it tried to do everything itself. Now things are generally cheaper because our producers are competing with imports.

The main cause of the recent inflation was deglobalization due to the war in Ukraine.

Which brings us back to energy. If countries in Europe weren’t so reliant on Russian gas, there would not be so much competition for energy, which kind of puts a lie to the fact that the world will be relying on renewable energy and battery storage any time soon. Without Russian Gas, and French nuclear, the whole thing starts to fall apart. Germany, one of the worlds largest investors in renewables, has just had to complete a new LNG import facility just to keep the country running. No cheap power flooding in from solar and wind for Europe.

The critical statement is: "Anytime soon".

Time is far more critical than people consider. First critical point is that costs for coal, gas, and nuclear are hugely weighted into capital costs. If you cannot guarantee a forty year life to pay off the capital it simply means you have to increase prices to pay capital costs over a shorter period. The higher the cost of fossils and nukes, the more that renewables outcompete. So, sure, over ten years, what you say is true. However, the prices you'd have to charge for a fossil/nuke plant with a ten year life are insane. Nobody will do that unless there's no alternative. Now, in ten years, with higher penetration of renewables, much of that nuclear and fossil power generation cost will be sunk. Lost forever, and the renewable penetration will be because of lower prices on present trajectories. So, yes, in the next ten years, renewables are going to take over slowly. But not in the next year.

Point being, Europe has no choice. We do.

[rev]

Also, costs aren’t the same everywhere. Just because nuclear power is economically viable in some parts of Europe doesn’t mean it would be here.

True.
A big factor in things being more expensive in Australia, is we bloody import so much.

Actually the reverse is the case! Australia was a very expensive country when it tried to do everything itself. Now things are generally cheaper because our producers are competing with imports.

The main cause of the recent inflation was deglobalization due to the war in Ukraine.

A Toyota Camry which used to be produced in Australia up until 2017, cost up to $30k.
The Toyota Camry now made overseas and imported to Australia cost nearly $40k.

Similarly, the cost of the imported "Holden Commodore" was not cheaper then the locally produced equivalent.

The problem was that we couldn't compete with the massive volumes pumped out by the big global manufacturers/exporters, because our locally made cars from Holden/Ford were geared to our tiny market in Oceania, even though both were foreign owned by their US parent companies. Our governments dropped the tariffs, making it harder for our local manufacturers.

Who would build a nuclear power plant? A unionized workforce. If we built one in outback SA, would the Victorian controlled CFMEU SA branch, be co-operative, or would they drive the cost out of this world with their demands?
My mates who work in the commercial construction industry in both states are laughing all the way to the bank though thanks to the CFMEU.

[PeFe]

I am a bit over the discussion on this forum always heading towards 'Well in Europe last month......"

Europe is neither ahead nor behind South Australia in the renewable game......they have merely chosen a different path (interconnectors rather than storage, even though lots of European countries have mountains and regular rainfall)

Of course northern Europe is totally different climatically as well.......if you are going to talk about Europe then compare to Spain and Portugal.

Anyway back in SA......SA has been generating tons of electricity during the day exporting east during the main daylight hours



And the wholesale spot price has plummeted to -$12......





And a new tender for 600mw of storage has been announced for South Australia

https://reneweconomy.com.au/australias- ... ar-states/

[abc]

All of you please note:
• We don’t know who blew up Nordstream2. Only Sweden and whoever did it know.
• The evidence appears to show the pipe was blown up from the inside, but we don’t know how reliable or trustworthy that evidence is.
• ‘Twas an act of economic sabotage not terrorism. There are instances where the line between the two is blurred, but this is not one of them.
• If it was done by Russia, it’s possible (though unlikely) it was done by partisans rather than the state. Sweden would not be able to tell the difference.
• Putin has ordered false flag operations against Russia before.
• More concerning are recent reports of serious damage to the Finland—Estonia gas pipeline.

Also, costs aren’t the same everywhere. Just because nuclear power is economically viable in some parts of Europe doesn’t mean it would be here.

garbage

this is pure western propaganda