News & Discussion: Trams

[Aidan]

Buses blocking the team stops Aidan?

The tramline down King Wm, North Terrace, and down to Port Road is underutilised. There's no reason (other than absurd centre island stops) why buses couldn't run along the tram tracks and take some load off thevother lanes in those streets.

Have you forgotten how long the buses in Grenfell Street take to load? We should not inflict that problem on our trams!

Our tramline in the City is indeed underutilized, partly because the trams still don't run anywhere near frequently enough and partly because we only have one route using it at the moment. But obstructing the tram tracks with buses would not be an improvement.

[rev]

Buses blocking the team stops Aidan?

The tramline down King Wm, North Terrace, and down to Port Road is underutilised. There's no reason (other than absurd centre island stops) why buses couldn't run along the tram tracks and take some load off thevother lanes in those streets.

Some of you need to remember and never forget that this is Adelaide, not Germany.
Adelaide drivers cant even handle a bit of rain after a dry spell without multiple crashes all over the metro area. And you expect Adelaide to cope with buses and trams sharing a line?

A first step might be to advocate better and more extensive driver training.

Otherwise it will result in the same catastrophe we have on our roads at present with bikes and motor vehicles trying to share the same limited space divided up only by some white painted lines on the road that nobody gives a shit about when it suits them.


This government needs to grow a set already.
Forget these bit by bit plans and just announce a whole damn tram network in the CBD and inner suburbs, and start by building the CBD loops first and then extending out into the inner suburbs.
Enough pussy footing around. Who gives a damn if some self interest minority groups are offended or pissed off. Do we actually have real politicians anymore? Do your damn jobs and isolate the fools and clowns in society who hold the rest of the state back with their selfishness.

[rubberman]

Aidan,

Have a look at the youtube clip I posted a few posts further back.trams and buses working an intense service.

It is done elsewhere, so statements that it can't be done are null and void.

[crawf]

This government needs to stop wasting valuable resources on plan after plan, and actually commit to one plan and finish it. Case in point, train electrification. Once the train network is fully electrified and improved, then look at building a inner-city tram network, train city loop etc.

If you add up all the tens of millions of dollars that has been spent on this countless studies, marketing and masterplans. It could potentially pay off the whole Gawler line electrification, with extra trains.

[ml69]

Hey I love trams as much as other people on this forum, but I want to throw a left-field thought out there.

Given our state's financial position, it could be decades before the WESTlink and EASTlink tram lines are built to Henley Beach and up The Parade, which would most likely cost billions to build in any case.

As a cost-saving compromise, wouldn't it be just as effective to have a dedicated bus lane going from Henley Beach connecting to the existing Currie/Grenfell St bus lanes, then the dedicated bus lane continues up the Parade? This bus lane would use the same space as a dedicated tramline and cause the same inconvenience to road traffic, so no difference there.

The bus lane surface could be painted in that red colour frequently used to identify a public transport lane. At traffic lights, the bus lane would have priority signaling to speed up travel.

What I envision would be different to a normal bus service is that stations would be spaced sbout 1km apart, like a normal trsm service, so the bus would provide a much higher speed service than regular buses and effectively become a semi-rapid transit service. Also, you would build high quality bus stops that resemble the existing tram stops. Hence you have all the benefits of a tram line at small fraction of the cost.

Thoughts?

[Aidan]

rubberman, that clip was timelapse so you may not have realised how much the buses delay the trams. They were mostly high floor trams and low floor buses so the difference in boarding times was reduced. And most importantly, it appers to be a suburbsn location, so fewer passengers were boarding at that stop.

Just because it can be done elsewhere doesn't mean it should be done here!

If we want to get the City traffic flowing again, the best thing to do would be to reinstate left turn lanes like the one they took out from North Terrace to Frome Road, and investigate opportunities for adding others. At the moment we appear to need one from North Terrace to King William Road, though the closure of Station Road will probably remove the need for that one.

[Aidan]

Hey I love trams as much as other people on this forum, but I want to throw a left-field thought out there.

Given our state's financial position, it could be decades before the WESTlink and EASTlink tram lines are built to Henley Beach and up The Parade, which would most likely cost billions to build in any case.

As a cost-saving compromise, wouldn't it be just as effective to have a dedicated bus lane going from Henley Beach connecting to the existing Currie/Grenfell St bus lanes, then the dedicated bus lane continues up the Parade? This bus lane would use the same space as a dedicated tramline and cause the same inconvenience to road traffic, so no difference there.

The bus lane surface could be painted in that red colour frequently used to identify a public transport lane. At traffic lights, the bus lane would have priority signaling to speed up travel.

What I envision would be different to a normal bus service is that stations would be spaced sbout 1km apart, like a normal trsm service, so the bus would provide a much higher speed service than regular buses and effectively become a semi-rapid transit service. Also, you would build high quality bus stops that resemble the existing tram stops. Hence you have all the benefits of a tram line at small fraction of the cost.

Thoughts?

I don't think they'd cost billions, but on that route I'd rate them as low priority as they wouldn't do anything the buses don't already do, and the existing bus priority measures are fairly good.

Having stops a kilometre apart makes sense on some longer routes, but wouldn't be woth it on short routes like that — frequent services are far more important. IIRC most stops on the Glenelg line are only half that far apart.

[ChillyPhilly]

While on the sub-topic of buses to serve PT needs while state finances recover enabling new tramways, what's the viability of a (perhaps simplified) Curitiba-style bus network?

[rubberman]

Aidan,

Lololol! You really need to get out a bit more.

First of all, that was Prague. The bus and tram stop dwell times there are a fraction of those in Adelaide. High floor trams included. A fraction.

Second of all, those buses with the X in their destination are Metro substitute buses. That's right, those buses are substituting for a five minute headway Five carriage metro! So, with 3 lines, and 590 million passengers per year, those buses are the equivalent of a 190 million per year system.

Those buses are not delaying the trams in any way. And with the long dwell times for trams in Adelaide, it would probably be the other way here.

Adelaide's trams and buses run well under par Aidan, well under. Wilful refusal to acknowledge that other people might have better ways of doing things is merely compounded by trying to ignore the evidence, not only of one's own eyes, but published statistics as well.

[Aidan]

rubberman,

I'm not refusing to acknowledge that otther people might have better ways of doing things. Of course they would — probably starting with running more frequent services to avoid the overcrowding that we've failed to properly address (particularly on the trams).

But it's just not true that the buses aren't delaying trams in any way in the video. They clearly are, and there appear to be buses delayed by trams as well.

And that's at a suburban stop, with stops long enough for a bus and a tram to use together. With our longer trams, that isn't a viable option at our City stops.

City stops will always have longer dwell times than suburban stops because more passengers use the stop. And it's normally only those getting on or off there that significantly affect the dwell times, not passengers staying on, though our trams are currently so crowded that the latter slow them too.

But if you think our tram dwell times are bad, have a look at our O-bahn buses in Grenfell Street in the pm oeak!

[rubberman]

Aidan,

I did point out that the buses were being used as substitutes for the Prague Metro (Line C). That is, about 12600 passengers per hour during the off peak. I would not argue the point that if buses carrying that number of people were interpolated into the Glenelg line, there might be something of a delay. However, I am not proposing anything that absurd. My point is that, if Prague can run buses between trams and get an extra 12600 passengers per hour through with modest delays, then it should be a no brainer for Adelaide to run a fraction of that, and take some pressure off the other lanes in King Wm St, Nth Tce, and down to the Port Road with almost no delays.

The main impediments to this are, those nutty centre island stops, and front door only bus loading. However, it should not be beyond the capabilites of Adelaide to rectify both of those gaffes.

Or perhaps we should just get some people here on 457 visas who actually know wtf they are doing to run the show.

[Aidan]

rubberman, I'm well aware of what you pointed out, but you seem to have failed to comprehend what I pointed out. The vast majority of those passengers were not getting on at that stop.

Our centre island tram stops aren't nutty, they're the most sensible option. Gutter running trams would have been severely delayed by buses and probably also caused a lot of delays to buses. And side platforms in the middle of the road (like Melbourne's Swanston Street) would require more room (much more if buses were sharing the stops).

We should be running more trams, not clogging the tram stops up with buses.

[rubberman]

Aidan,

You are not thinking. First of all, the problem we have with our buses is that they are slow to load. What the people who run buses in Prague (and just about any other place where they know what they are doing) is have multiple entry/exit doors with card readers on each door. Just like the MTT did here years ago (The MTT called 'em conductors). Then your point about the video showing people exiting vs entering becomes entirely irrelevant.

So, step 1, make Adelaide's buses multiple door entry/exit.

Second, you completely miss the point that King Wm St, North Terrace, and down to Port Road, during peak hours the tram lane is grossly underutilised, and the other lanes are packed. If you can't see that relieving the pressure on the overstressed lanes by transferring some traffic to lightly stressed lanes, then don't go into a job where network optimisation of any sort is required as a career choice. Now, as you do point out, that could be done by putting more trams on. But that might be in twenty years, or never, so how about we be a tiny bit practical and do something now. Such as getting the Port Road bound buses, or some of them, onto the tram lines, and out of the traffic, to everyone's benefit. There is also the little matter of economic evaluation. If more people via buses can use that space, then the cost benefit becomes more favorable to its construction.

So, step 2, get some buses onto the tramline, and get some more utilisation of that rather expensive asset.

[Vee]

Why it’s time to get Norwood tram plan on track...
Local Council puts its case for prioritizing the next tram extension from the city to the eastern suburbs, along Norwood Parade.

A LOCAL council and businesses are urging the State Government to fast-track a new tram line to link the city with the eastern suburbs.
Norwood, Payneham & St Peters Council says a tram line connecting the city with The Parade must be made a priority and the government should plan for it as part of its proposal to extend the O-Bahn to the city through Rymill Park.

Mayor Robert Bria said last week he wanted the government to carry out its plan to create a tram corridor through Kent Town and Norwood to The Parade shopping district and the University of South Australia’s Magill campus as soon as possible.
Mr Bria said it was the next “logical step” for Adelaide’s public transport system.

“We want the tram extension to travel around The Parade and do a dog leg around Magill Rd and stop at the Magill UniSA campus,” Mr Bria said.
“At a very minimum, the government must fast-track a tram extension through The Parade and have it stop at Pembroke School.

“If the State Government is serious about creating vibrant, mix-used precincts in inner-suburban areas, then the tram down The Parade must be at the top of the list.”

His comments come 18 months after the council first made a plea for the State Government to make creating a tram line connecting the east with the city a priority.

“Now that the O-Bahn project is being rolled out for feedback, the next logical step is for the tram line to be incorporated into the O-Bahn project so that work on the east link tram line can begin,” Mr Bria said.

Eastern Messenger:
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenger ... 7301852644

[Llessur2002]

I've always been a bit confused as to why the PortLINK is shown in the 30 year transport plan as being short-medium term whilst the other lines are medium-long term as this route's already well-served by the Grange/Outer Harbor rail line. I agree with the long-term transition to light rail on this route but I would have thought that introducing a new transport line into the CBD such as the ProspectLINK would be of greater overall benefit to the transport system. I guess cost might be something to do with it - cheaper to convert an existing line that create an entirely new one.