News & Discussion: Trams

[Llessur2002]

Cheers - I didn't know about that funding. So, one way or the other, something has to happen with the line starting next year? Either electrification (presumably meaning the line will remain as heavy rail for the foreseeable future) or conversion to light rail?

Actually, I guess I’ve got this slightly wrong. Presumably the options are:

1) Build the underpass – effectively killing the PortLINK tram proposal for the medium/long-term as a conversion to light rail and connecting to the existing tram line would make the new underpass redundant. I presume this wouldn’t require immediate electrification of the line.

2) Don’t build the underpass – convert to light rail now.

3) Don’t build the underpass – retain potential for light rail conversion in the future but junction would not be improved.

If the State Government is committed to the PortLINK proposal, they'll have to chose between options 2 and 3. Therefore, I guess the question is: Can the Federal funding be used for light rail conversion works relating to this junction or is it specifically for a heavy rail underpass?

So could this mean we might actually have a new tram line coming our way within the next couple of years?

[Nathan]

I don't think the federal funds can be used for conversion to light rail. The aim of the federal funding is to benefit the freight line. Any benefit to the Outer Harbour line from it is just a bonus (and I'd assume any work beyond immediately eliminating the crossover would have to be paid for by the state government, although there's probably an argument for funding to put it under Park Tce given that it is also a freight route, particularly so when the Torrens to Torrens South Rd project is in progress).

I do have reservations about trams on a route that long too. Doesn't strike me as the most efficient option. The only justification I can see is so it can run through Port Adelaide and Semaphore, rather than over the viaduct that, let's face it, is far too removed from the centre of Port Adelaide. Is it worth it though?

[Llessur2002]

I don't think the federal funds can be used for conversion to light rail. The aim of the federal funding is to benefit the freight line.

I just wondered if the total removal of the Outer harbor line due to rerouting as part of a light rail conversion would be seen as resulting in the same benefit to the freight line. Although, given the Federal Government's stance on public transport I'm sure it wouldn't be.

So in that case the Government's faced with the stark decision of whether to take the money, improve the junction (which would fit in nicely with the Bowden masterplan of the underground station allowing the route directly above the line to be used as a more sensible and direct route for the Outer Harbour Greenway/cycle path rather than the current detour that's in place at the moment) or turn down the money with no certainty that the funds would be found for the PortLINK project in the near future, leaving the Torrens Junction unimproved.

Given that choice I think I'd take the $100-odd million, build the underpass, put the PortLINK project on the long-term list and prioritise either the Prospect or Airport tram lines or the City Loop when the funds become available. The Prospect line might make sense given the OBahn project's about to get started and an extension along North Terrace and down East Terrace would effectively kick-start the City Loop anyway...

[Nathan]

I'm in full agreement there. I wish they'd just bite the bullet, underground it, and get it done at the same time as they're doing the South Rd overpass to minimise the disruption on users of the line.

The issue of Port Adelaide doesn't have to be solved by a tram. It's not actually that far from the train station to the centre of PA, it just feels like it. Having the Port Canal Shopping Centre and Port Mall carparks on route to St Vincent St just kills the connection, and makes that stretch of Commercial Rd a very unfriendly place on foot.

On a side note, the pedestrian/cycle bridge over Park Tce is separately funded (by RenewalSA) and will be built regardless of what happens to the train line (although it will affect the design and exact position of it).

[Llessur2002]

Presumably a decision would have to be made soon - by the state budget maybe?

[claybro]

Conversion of the Outer Harbour line to light rail would be viable if
1. Grange Line also converted.
2. West Lakes extension completed.
3. Semaphore and Port Adelaide extension completed.
This would bring the business centres of Port Adelaide, Semaphore and West Lakes into the system, and better utilise the Woodvill/City corridor.
It would greatly increase frequency along the Woodville/City section (the current train frequency is poorly patronsied and the frequency is pathetic)
The only downside...Those commuters on the LeFevre pensinsula would have a much longer journey than is currently the case.
The other question is if the operators have the balls to speed the system up to get best efficiency as they are far from having it right even on the Glenelg Line.
The existing heavy rail is not really viable in its current setup.

[[Shuz]]

As a daily user of the Outer Harbour line, it really should be light rail. There simply isnt the patronage to support heavy rail. Ever. Better to have tram lines branched off to Grange, Semaphore, and West Lakes.

[Waewick]

As a daily user of the Outer Harbour line, it really should be light rail. There simply isnt the patronage to support heavy rail. Ever. Better to have tram lines branched off to Grange, Semaphore, and West Lakes.

I'm curious, do you think there is potential to get patronage up? are you aware of anything holding it back other than population?

[PeFe]

By converting the Outer Harbor/Grange line to light rail you effectively make the journey times to Rundle Mall 10 minutes longer by the fact that the tram would come off its own right-of-way in Bowden and then crawl through the Port Road and North Terrace traffic into the city. All light rail/tram systems suffer from the negative effects of street running.
Does anyone know whether it is practical to run tram-trains into the Adelaide railway station? Or could there be a separate tram line into the railway station ? Could this be a solution? Keeping a rapid transit entry into the CBD whilst adding extra destinations (West Lakes and Semaphore) at the other end.
The Outer Harbor line has suffered from major neglect ie the stations are crap, the service is crap....however who knows what will happen in the future. Apartment living seems to be really taking off in the city, maybe one day we will see proper transit-orientated developments along the line. There is a lot of potential there...Bowden (happening now), Kilkenny, Woodville, Port Adelaide, West Lakes and maybe even up the Le Fevre Peninsula.
A high speed rail entry into the CBD should never be given away lightly....

[Phantom]

As a daily user of the Outer Harbour line, it really should be light rail. There simply isnt the patronage to support heavy rail. Ever. Better to have tram lines branched off to Grange, Semaphore, and West Lakes.

I'm curious, do you think there is potential to get patronage up? are you aware of anything holding it back other than population?

I would've thought that the St Clair development of Cheltenham Racecourse would have brought a few thousand extra people into the area?

[Hooligan]

Wasn't tram-trains what the government was going to go with for the outer harbor line back in their 2008 10 year plan for public transport?

Imagine if that plan came to fruition. It's almost like this generations MATS now.

I always liked the coast to coast name they gave there tram plan back then. Trams going from the coast! then back to the same coast!

[jk1237]

By converting the Outer Harbor/Grange line to light rail you effectively make the journey times to Rundle Mall 10 minutes longer by the fact that the tram would come off its own right-of-way in Bowden and then crawl through the Port Road and North Terrace traffic into the city. All light rail/tram systems suffer from the negative effects of street running.
Does anyone know whether it is practical to run tram-trains into the Adelaide railway station? Or could there be a separate tram line into the railway station ? Could this be a solution? Keeping a rapid transit entry into the CBD whilst adding extra destinations (West Lakes and Semaphore) at the other end.
The Outer Harbor line has suffered from major neglect ie the stations are crap, the service is crap....however who knows what will happen in the future. Apartment living seems to be really taking off in the city, maybe one day we will see proper transit-orientated developments along the line. There is a lot of potential there...Bowden (happening now), Kilkenny, Woodville, Port Adelaide, West Lakes and maybe even up the Le Fevre Peninsula.
A high speed rail entry into the CBD should never be given away lightly....

agree 100%, really hope they don't turn it into only light rail and use the current tram line from Hindmarsh. Its so ridiculously slow

[skyliner]

By converting the Outer Harbor/Grange line to light rail you effectively make the journey times to Rundle Mall 10 minutes longer by the fact that the tram would come off its own right-of-way in Bowden and then crawl through the Port Road and North Terrace traffic into the city. All light rail/tram systems suffer from the negative effects of street running.
Does anyone know whether it is practical to run tram-trains into the Adelaide railway station? Or could there be a separate tram line into the railway station ? Could this be a solution? Keeping a rapid transit entry into the CBD whilst adding extra destinations (West Lakes and Semaphore) at the other end.
The Outer Harbor line has suffered from major neglect ie the stations are crap, the service is crap....however who knows what will happen in the future. Apartment living seems to be really taking off in the city, maybe one day we will see proper transit-orientated developments along the line. There is a lot of potential there...Bowden (happening now), Kilkenny, Woodville, Port Adelaide, West Lakes and maybe even up the Le Fevre Peninsula.
A high speed rail entry into the CBD should never be given away lightly....

agree 100%, really hope they don't turn it into only light rail and use the current tram line from Hindmarsh. Its so ridiculously slow

Agree 100% also. So many train lines have been ripped up in the past and later regretted as unforeseen but obvious changes occurred.
Port line should be kept as the city will develop in that direction in the future.

ADELAIDE - TOWARDS A GREATER CITY SKYLINE

[Westside]

They just need to get on with it and build the underpass (after all, it's money for jam).

At the end of the day, we should not be removing a direct rail link into the city. Even if the whole line is converted to light rail, you could still send the OH trams via the existing heavy rail line. Once you get into the city, there are a myriad of options for the line.

1. It can rejoin the current tram under the Morphett St bridge. This will most likely require grade separation from the Belair and Seaford lines, but can be done.
2. It can simply terminate in its own platforms in Adelaide station. However, this negates the benefit of it being a light rail of being able to penetrate into the city and would effectively create a disconnect between the remaining southern and northern heavy rail lines.
3. It can rise in its own viaduct to meet the Morphett St bridge and continue into the city via Currie or Grote sts.
4. It can follow the interstate line and join the tram at Port rd.

These are just off the top of my head, so I'm sure the powers that be can look at what the best option is. However, giving this money away because of the potential to not use the line in the future is just ridiculous.

[PeFe]

Nathan wrote

On top of that, I just happened to be catching a tram home (from Rundle Mall to Entertainment Centre) at the time the crowd hit, and there were trams running in both directions at less than 5min intervals. So obviously more frequent running isn't limited by the number of trams or concerns about blocking up intersections of level crossings.

The last time I was in Adelaide, during the Fringe period, I was out and about on the Sunday night after the Clipsal race, and the trams were running every 10 minutes to clear the race crowd and also service the Fringe goers and I thought to myself :
"'This is great, it really feels like a bigger city, more happening, more people out and about. You know if people were driving their cars it would be far less interesting, people on public transport can contribute to an "urban vibe" that car drivers never can (they are too worried about getting back to suburbia and they don't contribute that much to "the nightlife" because they cant drink and drive)
Anyway the trams every 10 minutes seem to last till midnight, and that helped make probably the "most interesting Sunday night in Adelaide"