New Royal Adelaide Hospital

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stumpjumper
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New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by stumpjumper »

I'm surprised the fiasco of the government's New RAH development isn't receiving more prominence here.

At just under $3 million per bed for its 800 beds it's the most expensive hospital ever built, and has no land purchase component. That's at the current blown out cost of $2.34 billion compared with the $2.1 billion originally quoted cost. The project was bound to run into trouble because the personnel involved from the government are inexperienced in the efficient delivery of major developments and lack incentive to contain costs. Further, the government staff lack motivation to do a good job and avoid taking responsibility for their work. Government staff get paid regardless, almost never get sacked and dread responsibility above almost anything else.

As a result, the project is gradually going belly up. The Liberal 'Opposition', like crumbers hovering outside a pack in a footy game, are waiting for the Labor government's spin to fail and for it to lose an election, while Labor's politicians and their hundreds of staffers work long and hard to misinform the public as to the true state of affairs and to shift blame away from themselves.

The relatively modest cost and reasonable outcome of the proposal to renovate and expand the old RAH is making that option look more and more like the preferred option, but one whose time has sadly passed. Worse, the new no expenses spared hospital was designed by a team that didn't include any clinicians who use such facilities. As a result, there are idealistic solutions that won't work in practice, such as no waiting rooms in the emergency department because everyone will supposedly be whisked to their private room on arrival, and no provision for storage of records, because everything will be on computers like the present disastrous computerised system that doesn't work.

It may be that in conceiving and building the new RAH we have bitten off more than we can chew, and have saddled ourselves with an expensive, ongoing cost centre. At least it's not running over schedule, though, according to Aaron Cartledge of the project managers, the CFMEU. Mr Cartledge assures everyone that 'The project is on time. It is the schedule that is early.' The government has fallen back on a similarly ludicrous excuse, one of the oldest plays in the book, to defend the delays and cost overruns. 'It's about safety,' said pathetic Treasurer Jack Snelling. He doesn't sound convincing and I doubt he believes a word of it. Luckily for the government, the media in SA if not asleep are on side. After all, the government is the biggest employer of media talent in SA.

The winners so far are the trades on massive incomes at the site, the CFMEU which is reaping rewards from its control of the site, and the lawyers, who are working overtime for the government and the builders. The only losers are the members of the public, who are simultaneously being ripped off and denied information by their elected, representative government. The government's Liberal 'Opposition', a laughable outfit who at most whisper 'The Government could do better' in the face of stuffups like the new RAH provide no check on the Government's incompetence and maladministration whatsoever.

The nRAH project proves yet again the ancient adage: 'If you want it f*cked up, give it to the government'.

That's a valuable lesson to relearn, because people may have forgotten the management stuffups and cost blowouts of previous government projects such as the Government Frozen Food Factory, the Port Adelaide Flower Farm, the MFP, the Hindmarsh Stadium, the ASER (Myer) Development, Newport Quays, the Adelaide Oval, the National Wine Centre, the Victoria Park grandstand, the Gillman oil and gas hub, and so on. And to be fair to the present government, its senior operatives have probably been directly involved in fewer than half of the projects in that list.
Last edited by stumpjumper on Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Norman
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $2.1b

Post by Norman »

I'm surprised that you haven't posted much (if anything) non-political on this forum. Or maybe I shouldn't be.

There's a Politics thread in the beer garden. Use that for any optical points, here we just want to know the construction progress.

On that note, any idea if they are fixing the issues or just engaging in legal battles?
Last edited by Norman on Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
bits
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $2.1b

Post by bits »

stumpjumper wrote: At just under $3 million per bed for its 800 beds it's the most expensive hospital ever built, and has no land purchase component. That's at the current blown out cost of $2.34 billion compared with the $2.1 billion originally quoted cost.
Do we know the final cost? The contract to maintain the hospital which also pays for the build has apparently been running since the first due date last year. That is may be 2 years reduction of payments. Which may signicantly reduce the cost and it is not open yet, there may be court action to further change costs etc.

Seems very premature to talk about what the cost blowout was.

All the cost figures also include the running costs of maintenance and staff for the hospital while never comparing that to the existing costs of the old rah. You can't moan about what the new one costs when you haven't mentioned what the old one costs.
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $2.1b

Post by ghs »

stumpjumper wrote:I'm surprised the fiasco of the government's New RAH development isn't receiving more prominence here.

At just under $3 million per bed for its 800 beds it's the most expensive hospital ever built, and has no land purchase component. That's at the current blown out cost of $2.34 billion compared with the $2.1 billion originally quoted cost. The project was bound to run into trouble because the personnel involved from the government are inexperienced in the efficient delivery of major developments and lack incentive to contain costs. Further, the government staff lack motivation to do a good job and avoid taking responsibility for their work. Government staff get paid regardless, almost never get sacked and dread responsibility above almost anything else.

As a result, the project is gradually going belly up. The Liberal 'Opposition', like crumbers hovering outside a pack in a footy game, are waiting for the Labor government's spin to fail and for it to lose an election, while Labor's politicians and their hundreds of staffers work long and hard to misinform the public as to the true state of affairs and to shift blame away from themselves.

The cost and outcome of the proposal to renovate and expand the old RAH is making that option look more and more like the preferred option, but one whose time has sadly passed. Worse, the new no expenses spared hospital was designed by a team that didn't include any clinicians who use such facilities. As a result, there are idealistic solutions that won't work in practice, such as no waiting rooms in the emergency department because everyone will supposedly be whisked to their private room on arrival, and no provision for storage of records, because everything will be on computers like the present disastrous computerised system that doesn't work.

It may be that in conceiving and building the new RAH we have bitten off more than we can chew, and have saddled ourselves with an expensive, ongoing cost centre. At least it's not running over schedule, though, according to Aaron Cartledge of the project managers, the CFMEU. Mr Cartledge assures everyone that 'The project is on time. It is the schedule that is early.' The government has fallen back on a similarly ludicrous excuse, one of the oldest plays in the book, to defend the delays and cost overruns. 'It's about safety,' said pathetic Treasurer Jack Snelling. He doesn't sound convincing and I doubt he believes a word of it. Luckily for the government, the media in SA if not asleep are on side. After all, the government is the biggest employer of media talent in SA.

The winners so far are the trades on massive incomes at the site, the CFMEU which is reaping rewards from its control of the site, and the lawyers, who are working overtime for the government and the builders. The only losers are the members of the public, who are simultaneously being ripped off and denied information by their elected, representative government. The government's Liberal 'Opposition', a laughable outfit who at most whisper 'The Government could do better' in the face of stuffups like the new RAH provide no check on the Government's incompetence and maladministration whatsoever.

The nRAH project proves yet again the ancient adage: 'If you want it f*cked up, give it to the government'.

That's a valuable lesson to relearn, because people may have forgotten the management stuffups and cost blowouts of previous government projects such as the Government Frozen Food Factory, the Port Adelaide Flower Farm, the MFP, the Hindmarsh Stadium, the ASER (Myer) Development, Newport Quays, the Adelaide Oval, the National Wine Centre, the Victoria Park grandstand, the Gillman oil and gas hub, and so on. And to be fair to the present government, its senior operatives have probably been directly involved in fewer than half of the projects in that list.
Excellent post stumpjumper.
You've hit the nail on the head here, this is a disaster for the Labor government.
I totally agree with your comment about the government personnel being inexperienced.

What prior experience does Jack Snelling have in managing a major construction project like this ?

One issue which you haven't mentioned is the deaths of 2 workers which is also not good enough.
There was also a death at the desalination plant in 2010. The government has strict regulations in
terms of safe work procedures but then we see workers dying on government projects.
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by stumpjumper »

Norman - There's a legal battle on, with the govt refusing to accept handover and the $1 million per day that obliges it to pay, and the construction consortium disputing the govt's complaints and talking about a counter claim. I'm not well informed about the state of completion of the site or about the progress of the legal claims.

bits - $2.34 billion was the last qualified figure I could get, but that was in April this year. Any sum awarded by the courts would adjust that figure, which is probably low by now anyway. The problem is that if the consortium can actually claim the $4 billion that's being spoken of, the loss to the state will be of State Bank proportions. Given our other problems, such a self-inflicted injury could finish off this state for decades if not permanently. The severe constraints such a debt would put on the state government would put us at a huge disadvantage relative to other states.

You're right that costs in use over time must be fairly compared, taking into account efficiencies etc. That's well beyond the information I have.

ghs - Jack Snelling has limited experience in property, development or any business, although to be fair, he's not running the project, just lying about the financials. After a brief career in supermarkets where he became an organiser for the Shoppies union, Snelling became an MP at 24. He has worked his way up in the Labor Right faction, and as a treasurer is an obedient puppy for his masters Koutsantonis, Weatherill and the rising star from the Shoppies union, Peter Malinauskas.

Deaths on building sites are tragic, but on a site as big as the nRAH hard to avoid.

You've pointed to an important issue. Often, MPs who are naive about business try to cut it with highly experienced businessmen, and as a result waste a lot of taxpayers' money. It's difficult to drive a good bargain when the money you are playing with isn't yours, there's plenty of it, and no-one will thank you for getting a great deal or punish you for caving in to a bad deal. Kevin Foley was the best recent example of a business newbie playing property developer with the big guys, who were glad to humour him because of the fat wad of cash he carried.

The government's 'businessmen' even lose to each other. Recently, the government resumed the former dental hospital on Frome Road for the new high school campus. UNISA was preparing to just walk away from the building, but the government offered the uni $30 million in compensation. UNISA hadn't even asked for any money! They took it gladly.

Governments should stick to roads, schools, hospitals and police, and facilitate rather than get involved with development.
Last edited by stumpjumper on Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by ghs »

stumpjumper wrote:
ghs - Jack Snelling has limited experience in property, development or any business. After a brief career in supermarkets where he became an organiser for the Shoppies union, Snelling became an MP at 24. He has worked his way up in the Labor Right faction, and as a treasurer is an obedient puppy for his masters Koutsantonis, Weatherill and the rising star from the Shoppies union, Peter Malinauskas.

Deaths on building sites are tragic, but on a site as big as the nRAH hard to avoid.
Good comment regarding Jack Snelling. He doesn't have the necessary experience in large scale construction projects.
He doesn't have much experience in small scale construction projects either.

I don't agree with your comment that deaths are hard to avoid on a big project like nRAH. You go to work to make a living, you don't go to work to die. I was onsite at the desalination plant on the friday afternoon in 2010 when the death occurred down there. They were lowering a steel beam on a crane and the steel beam was attached with a soft sling. It was incredibly unsafe. The soft sling broke and the beam fell and hit a worker underneath. It could have easily been avoided if the beam was attached to the crane with a chain.
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by stumpjumper »

Large construction sites can involve hundreds of workers and thousands of processes, often not ideally coordinated. Deaths on construction sites are obviously a very serious concern for site managers and workers, and a lot of effort is continunally expended to make sites safer.

The main causes of death and injury are falls, electrocution, struck-by-object and being 'caught-inbetween'. Safety equipment, safety protocols and worker training can only do so much. As well as 'imposed' safety measures, everyone on a site should have proper awareness of what's going on around them, but even then accidents caused by fluke chains of events, and human error and carelessness are hard to prevent.

As for Snelling, it's not just him but any politician making decisions on property development. If they don't have the experience to get a job at that level in private property development, it seems wrong that they can operate at that level just because they are MPs.
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by rev »

Let's be honest, this paid liberal party member/troll called stumpedjumper on this forum who refuses to admit it but instead plays innocent average citizen when the heats on, is only here posting again, this time about the hospital, because there's deep internal divisions within his own state Liberal party and there's been several damaging leaks from within the state opposition Liberal party. How do you conceal your own problems? By distracting people with other problems. They, the Liberal party and it's paid employees like Stumpjumper, do not want you to know about the deep rooted problems within the party and the infighting. Because you wont trust them and rightly so, at the next state election.

A divided party that can't keep it's sh** together, wants to lead our state?
They've had over a decade in opposition, and what has it taught them? Not a damn thing.
Where is their alternative plan and vision for our state? Where are they as an alternative government to hold the current state government(and those of the past decade and more) to account?

All we ever hear from the South Australian Liberal party branch, and their online trolls be in forums like Sensational Adelaide or the comments sections of Adelaide Now articles, is negativity about the state government, negativity about state government ministers, and negativity about visions and plans and progress in Adelaide and South Australia.

What we never hear is their alternative plan, what we never hear is their alternative to our current state government. That's why they haven't been able to get back into power in this state for well over a decade now.

They are pinning their hopes and dreams to the fiasco over the nRAH.
However anyone that's been paying attention knows full well the delays caused by the problems with nRAH are the fault of the consortium and the contractors they've hired to do the job.


Paid political trolls like Stumpjumper though want you to believe that the Health Minister Jack Snelling is out there at the construction sight over seeing the works.
Unfortunately for trolls like Stumpjumper, Jack Snelling's job title is not Construction or Project Manager.

The government entered into a private/public partnership with the consortium with the best tender to deliver a new hospital for Adelaide.
Can anyone guess which part of the partnership is the PRIVATE component and which is the PUBLIC component that the government is responsible for?
Here's a hint..for the trolls like Stumpjumper..it's abbreviated as HYLC.


What the paid Liberal party member trolls like stumpjumper do not want you to know, and will not tell you(I bet he pleads ignorance on this), is that it is not the government that is finding the defects and problems with the building.
It is the independent inspectors, a private company, that is going through the building and finding the faults, defects and general stuff ups that don't meet standards.

For example, the radiology wing of the hospital has not been built to specification. The protective lining in the walls that shields people outside of those rooms from being exposed to radiation, have not been done properly.
That's going to involve pulling internal walls down, fixing the problem, and putting new walls back up. At least two-three months they are saying.
The media reports are asking, how long have they known about this problem? That's an interesting question which I have the answer to, if only I could clarify just how long they(the consortium/builders) have known about it.

Again, this is not the governments fault, nor is it Jack Snellings fault.

What paid members of the Liberal party who are trolling and pushing political propaganda and the Liberal party's agenda will also not tell you, is that this is a building being built by a private consortium. It's part of the public-private partnership the government has entered in to. This differs from the building of for example the Superway on South Road, where government engineers were present.
The engineers on site at nRAH are from the HYLC consortium. Not the government.

These key little facts that clarify whose responsible for the delays, for the faults and defects in the building, will not be spoken about by the paid political trolls like Stumpjumper.

This is the sort of desperation you will see from the state Liberal party opposition and their paid member trolls more and more in the lead up to the next state election.
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by Spurdo »

rev wrote:Let's be honest, this paid liberal party member/troll called stumpedjumper on this forum who refuses to admit it but instead plays innocent average citizen when the heats on, is only here posting again, this time about the hospital, because there's deep internal divisions within his own state Liberal party and there's been several damaging leaks from within the state opposition Liberal party. How do you conceal your own problems? By distracting people with other problems. They, the Liberal party and it's paid employees like Stumpjumper, do not want you to know about the deep rooted problems within the party and the infighting. Because you wont trust them and rightly so, at the next state election.
So what your saying is that everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill? That seems like a bit of a fallacious statement.
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by OlympusAnt »

That building is gonna turn this state into Australia's Detroit
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

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OlympusAnt wrote:That building is gonna turn this state into Australia's Detroit
It's going to make all the well paid middle class leave the city to look for employment elsewhere when they're primary industry shuts down?
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by mshagg »

stumpjumper wrote: The nRAH project proves yet again the ancient adage: 'If you want it f*cked up, give it to the government'.
OK, I'll bite lol. Who would you propose is responsible for building a new public hospital? Who else should be doling out $2bil of the stat's dosh other than elected MPs and cabinet ministers? They tender the process and authorise treasury to pay invoices, no doubt aided and abetted by the frank and fearless public service and an army of consultants. As far as I know Snelling hasn't been down there doing form work or fitting electrical cables.

It's no great secret that government projects run over time and over budget as a general rule. I suspect that's due to the irresistible desire to over promise when announcing, but that hardly seems unique to centre left governments. Turns out building a big hospital is really hard.

The wowser stories plastered all over the city's daily rag about the hospital just reinforce our small town gossip mentality. "That money should be spent on fixing my road! What about the cost of parking!"

I guess I'm not sure where your specific criticisms rest as it reads as (another) fairly generic spray at the Labor party and the SDA?
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by crawf »

OlympusAnt wrote:That building is gonna turn this state into Australia's Detroit
If you believe the constant scare-mongering / Labor basing by News Limited and certain members on here, then sure.

In reality, no.

Rev and mshagg are 100% spot on.
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by serca »

The government are the ones who initially put unrealistic timelines and budgets on their projects. Not the Builder. Of coarse it looks better for them to initially sell to the public a best case scenario and over promise resulting in under delivering. They are aware this initial tender and budget will not be the end result.

Any build has unforeseen variations, which cost both time and money, and when you take into account one of if not the most expensive projects in Australian history it is no surprise that the project runs over. The tendering process is so costly and brutal these days for builders especially on government projects that they go in as low as possible to win the job with the power and expectation of charging excessive amounts on their variation orders. This is where the cream is made. So the builder will find any loop hole in the BCA or EPA or what ever to create a variation as well as the obvious ones. This in turn blows out budget and schedule. Its a vicious cycle.

Stumpjumper for you to say that there are trades on huge money sitting on the job benefiting from this I think is a poo bum comment. It was your (fed) liberal government that brought in AWA's and other legislations that makes sure their not on huge dollars. This isn't the mines. There are more of them yes but they certainly are Its the contractors and subbies that are the ones caught between the political jargon of the Primary builders and the government. I know of a few companies that have gone into liquidation specifically from this project and its brutal nature and after paying out their creditors its the individual subcontracting trades and employees that loose out.

I heard on the radio today that the LCHY is now suing the government, as they are claiming the government is with holding opening the hospital until it introduces a new unified medical or sharing computer data/software programme linking all the hospitals. I don't know if heard correct? We might end up like the Japanese now days where they all have a registered number thats unified across everything

Anyway all the big builders and politicians are as bad as each other if you ask me :toilet:

On a side note i think more money was unnecessarily wasted from the government on the school redevelopment / refurbishments that went on 5 or so years ago.

I think i just rambled a heap of shit. Hope some of it makes sense
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Re: New Royal Adelaide Hospital

Post by stumpjumper »

rev and Serra particularly, and everyone generally. I'm not a member of the Liberal Party or any other party. I happen to agree with most of rev's criticisms of the Liberal Party, and I'd go further in some directions. The present SA Liberals are one of the most inept, inward looking, wrongly focussed and hopeless political forces the state has known. In my opinion they are poorly led, and present themselves like a knd of political 'Friends of the ABC'. They are dead from the neck up, and can't lay a glove even on a union-dominated, unprofessional outfit like the SA ALP. The Liberals are too bound by their own bullshit, examples of which are the internal divisions like the stupid Chapman/Evans thing which no one outside their coterie cares about, and their tendency to leave 'Liberal royalty' in safe seats until they die, like Vickie Chapman in Bragg, denying themselves the chance of some decent new blood. And I don't say that they knocked me back - I just don't have time for them on practical grounds. If they can't make a dent in Weatherill's dodgy operation, they don't deserve to be called an Opposition. The only effective Opposition in this state are a few radio announcers and about three journalists. So don't accuse me of working for the Liberal Party.

All I want is good government and even average honesty. I'd rather it were a conservative government because I naturally lean that way, but I'd prefer a good Labor government to a bad Liberal one any day,

I'm in the building and construction industry, but I'm not paid anything by anyone to write what I write. I wish I were.


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