[VIS] New inner-city stadium

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Nathan
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Nathan »

Bob wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:25 am

Bowden – the so call wonderful urban design masterpiece of urban renewal. Well is reality it has far more vacant land with weeds growing out of it than new buildings. Once the area was another bustling hub of productivity – now it is a wasteland. Tram& train stops next to it, yet car parking congests the streets, everyone still driving – that’s a fail. Have you been to Plant 4? What a joke – a convenience store for the supermarket and a few hipster outlets. The Adelaide City Council had to build facilities at tis expense on the nearby parklands so these new residents had somewhere to play court sports, skate, ride bikes, garden and now the demand of new public toilets – yet the Bowden development is n Charles Sturt Council? Why didn’t the development include these things? Then let’s put a pedestrian crossing on the main ring road so every time someone needs to take their kid across the road to play in the ACC provide facilities they stop all 6 lanes of heavy traffic - the grade separation of the rail line was done to stop this kind of thing, now it’s reintroduced. If Bowden was such a wonderful urban design success, then why can’t they create the demand to fill it after all these years? Maybe not many people want to live there in that area? I wonder why? Maybe the wasteland environment has something to do with it?
The park across Park Tce in the Adelaide City Council, whilst maintained by ACC, was paid for by RenewalSA. The community garden is open to North Adelaide residents as well as those in Bowden. Public toilets are available at Plant 4 (one accessible from the outside), and there are already three parks also within the development area (with at least two more large ones to come).

The signalised pedestrian crossing was always planned once the rail grade separation happened (it only didn't happen before to avoid having too many lights too close together). It's less for "every time someone needs to take their key across the road play", and more because of the soccer club.
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rev
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by rev »

Nathan wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:22 pm
Bob wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:25 am

Bowden – the so call wonderful urban design masterpiece of urban renewal. Well is reality it has far more vacant land with weeds growing out of it than new buildings. Once the area was another bustling hub of productivity – now it is a wasteland. Tram& train stops next to it, yet car parking congests the streets, everyone still driving – that’s a fail. Have you been to Plant 4? What a joke – a convenience store for the supermarket and a few hipster outlets. The Adelaide City Council had to build facilities at tis expense on the nearby parklands so these new residents had somewhere to play court sports, skate, ride bikes, garden and now the demand of new public toilets – yet the Bowden development is n Charles Sturt Council? Why didn’t the development include these things? Then let’s put a pedestrian crossing on the main ring road so every time someone needs to take their kid across the road to play in the ACC provide facilities they stop all 6 lanes of heavy traffic - the grade separation of the rail line was done to stop this kind of thing, now it’s reintroduced. If Bowden was such a wonderful urban design success, then why can’t they create the demand to fill it after all these years? Maybe not many people want to live there in that area? I wonder why? Maybe the wasteland environment has something to do with it?
The park across Park Tce in the Adelaide City Council, whilst maintained by ACC, was paid for by RenewalSA. The community garden is open to North Adelaide residents as well as those in Bowden. Public toilets are available at Plant 4 (one accessible from the outside), and there are already three parks also within the development area (with at least two more large ones to come).

The signalised pedestrian crossing was always planned once the rail grade separation happened (it only didn't happen before to avoid having too many lights too close together). It's less for "every time someone needs to take their key across the road play", and more because of the soccer club.
South Australia cheaping out as usual. A nicely designed pedestrian bridge would be better.
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Nathan
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Nathan »

rev wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:52 pm
South Australia cheaping out as usual. A nicely designed pedestrian bridge would be better.
That's on DPTI. A pedestrian bridge was planned, along with the train line and Bowden Station being underground, but the federal funding for Torrens Junction wouldn't cover it, and DPTI didn't want to fork out themselves (and kept RenewalSA in the dark — they found out about the change to a trench through the media)
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Norman »

I guess this is what happens when the state locks down.

Adelaide should never in the next half century have 40,000 capacity stadium. I've been to Suncorp Stadium several times to watch a Brisbane Roar game. That's a 50,000 capacity stadium with a 9,000 crowd. It's horrible. No atmosphere, no excitement.

Adelaide should aim between 20,000 and 30,000 for a new stadium. And, seriously, the Liverpool game and the Grand Final at Adelaide Oval are 2 events that happened in the 15 years of Adelaide United. You would never ever get that kind of a crowd for a regular game, or even a game against Melbourne Victory. A stadium selling out twice in 15 years? No thank you.

Give me a sold-out 16,000 Coopers Stadium any day above that. The atmosphere is electric.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Patrick_27 »

Norman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:05 pm
I guess this is what happens when the state locks down.

Adelaide should never in the next half century have 40,000 capacity stadium. I've been to Suncorp Stadium several times to watch a Brisbane Roar game. That's a 50,000 capacity stadium with a 9,000 crowd. It's horrible. No atmosphere, no excitement.

Adelaide should aim between 20,000 and 30,000 for a new stadium. And, seriously, the Liverpool game and the Grand Final at Adelaide Oval are 2 events that happened in the 15 years of Adelaide United. You would never ever get that kind of a crowd for a regular game, or even a game against Melbourne Victory. A stadium selling out twice in 15 years? No thank you.

Give me a sold-out 16,000 Coopers Stadium any day above that. The atmosphere is electric.
Thank you!

It's mentioned about 'visionary' but I don’t see anything visionary about carbon copying the town planning/infrastructure methods of another city. Having all the sports stadia located in one precinct is that of Melbourne and any other city who has ever hosted an Olympic Games and guess what? It doesn’t work outside of game day even for cities of that size, there is no ground activity when there are no events happening (look at Homebush), they become a 4 acre dead space on any given day. Having underground rail is the infrastructure vision of every other major capital in the world and whether or not there are merits to Adelaide having underground rail, the extent of what Adelaide needs in this regard is up for debate, again, having a station under a sports precinct that might get used two nights/days of every week is not worth the hundreds of millions required to get it there. But again, newsflash, these ideas are not visionary and Adelaide is not a major capital of the world and never will be. We will always be a small/mid sized state capital and if we wanted to be visionary like you keep saying, we would be looking to the ways of individuality in cities like Manchester, Seattle, Copenhagen, Strasberg, even Portland. Not your Melbourne, London, New York and so forth. No amount of ‘visionary’ thinking is going to put us on the same playing field as Melbourne or Sydney, and the sooner some people on this forum realise this, the more interesting and productive these discussion threads will become.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Algernon »

Shock horror - the people who actually follow fooball love Hidmarsh and believe best option is upgrades, and people who hate sockah insist on a massively over engineered solution to a problem that doesn't exist because reasons

Hindmarsh is still the best football specific venue in Australia 20 years after it was built. Not because the others suck, but because it is just plain good. Things like sight lines, viewing distance and rake/c values do not change over time. 500m walk to major transport infrastructure doesn't change to a different distance. It stays good.

If people don't have the stomach for a good stadium remaining in use after 20 years, don't go to Anfield. They reused the Main Stand and incorporated it into the new Main - it's a new stand and half of its capacity is seated in the lower levels which were constructed in 1906. Or if you want an example closer to home - half of the western stand at hindmarsh is the old grandstand structure that is about 40 years old and incorporated into the newer stand.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by rev »

Some of you seem to think that just building a stadium will draw people to it.

All stake holders involved need to be involved, to market it and sell it, and create ALL the reasons for people to be drawn to it.
As part of the Port Adelaide community, I can say that we were hearing about Adelaide Oval for quite some time. We all knew it was coming, and we couldn't wait for it. The club kept us informed, it was hyped up, it was dramatized, etc etc.
There was a buzz created around the move to AO.

Even the state government was in on creating the buzz.


Yes, some of us are suggesting a new rectangular stadium east of Adelaide Oval as the ideal location, if one was to be built. Yes we would like to see it done.
But the state government, the A League and FFA, Adelaide United, SMA, and other stake holders (perhaps NRL?) need to come together to the same party to make it happen. WHEN all the stake holders come together, it is possible.

Who gives a shit about Brisbane and what happens there. They moved the Roar there, they didn't build the venue for the Brisbane Roar or A League, they just moved them there to play games. That's different to what would happen here.

Alternatively, and this is where South Australians seem to struggle with alternative visions or ideas or possibilities, the stadium could be built in a say, modular way, where it can be scaled up or down depending on capacity required. Would it cost a hefty sum? Probably. But we seem to like to waste money on bullshit in this state, so why not waste money on some bullshit that's actually going to be put to good use for a change.
The stadium could have a capacity ranging from say 20,000 (only 3,500 more then the current pile of turds that is Coopers stadium), up to 50,000.
It could be designed and built in a way where even the internal seats, where lower tiers can be added or removed. That would create more or less space on the sidelines.

There are many possibilities. But the state has to be open to them.
Las Vegas just built a stadium with a huge see through roof, huge outdoor video screen, and two huge doors on one side that open up and allow natural air in to the venue, on top of having a playing surface on wheels that can be moved in and out from under the stadium like the crumb tray in your toaster.

Think a little more multi dimensional, instead of always being stuck in the one dimensional thinking that's typical in South Australia.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Champs84 »

A few thoughts here.

I tend to agree with several of the sentiments already expressed. As sexy as the concept of a shiny new inner-city stadium is, the cold hard truth is that the potential occupants would need to be demanding it.

The Adelaide Oval redevelopment succeeded in large part due to the fact that it a) centralised the most popular sport in the country, making it several times more accessible and b) because the sport had long outgrown footy park. Games were regularly being sold out in minutes. Including PAFC games. There was a need.

Neither Adelaide United or the 36ers are anywhere near outgrowing the capacity in their current venues. And neither of those venues are inaccessible.

I just don't subscribe to the whole 'build it and they will come' philosophy. I'd rather see the vision energy go into transforming Hindmarsh. That area around the Coopers and the Ent Cent is an industrial shit hole. Let's get some urban renewal going down there!
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Patrick_27 »

Champs84 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:39 am
A few thoughts here.

I tend to agree with several of the sentiments already expressed. As sexy as the concept of a shiny new inner-city stadium is, the cold hard truth is that the potential occupants would need to be demanding it.

The Adelaide Oval redevelopment succeeded in large part due to the fact that it a) centralised the most popular sport in the country, making it several times more accessible and b) because the sport had long outgrown footy park. Games were regularly being sold out in minutes. Including PAFC games. There was a need.

Neither Adelaide United or the 36ers are anywhere near outgrowing the capacity in their current venues. And neither of those venues are inaccessible.

I just don't subscribe to the whole 'build it and they will come' philosophy. I'd rather see the vision energy go into transforming Hindmarsh. That area around the Coopers and the Ent Cent is an industrial shit hole. Let's get some urban renewal going down there!
Labor's ethos has long been 'build it and they will come' whereas the Liberals have always been 'show us the demand and we'll build it'.

Not entirely true about Football Park, it was absolutely the opposite story out there, games were barely selling beyond the membership base so the move was set to inspire that. Had it been about capacity, the government at the time would have invested in a 60,000 seat stadium.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Brucetiki »

Norman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:05 pm
I guess this is what happens when the state locks down.

Adelaide should never in the next half century have 40,000 capacity stadium. I've been to Suncorp Stadium several times to watch a Brisbane Roar game. That's a 50,000 capacity stadium with a 9,000 crowd. It's horrible. No atmosphere, no excitement.

Adelaide should aim between 20,000 and 30,000 for a new stadium. And, seriously, the Liverpool game and the Grand Final at Adelaide Oval are 2 events that happened in the 15 years of Adelaide United. You would never ever get that kind of a crowd for a regular game, or even a game against Melbourne Victory. A stadium selling out twice in 15 years? No thank you.

Give me a sold-out 16,000 Coopers Stadium any day above that. The atmosphere is electric.
On a side note, the Roar have realised this and moved to a smaller ground in the suburbs.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Algernon »

Brucetiki wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:48 pm
Norman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:05 pm
I guess this is what happens when the state locks down.

Adelaide should never in the next half century have 40,000 capacity stadium. I've been to Suncorp Stadium several times to watch a Brisbane Roar game. That's a 50,000 capacity stadium with a 9,000 crowd. It's horrible. No atmosphere, no excitement.

Adelaide should aim between 20,000 and 30,000 for a new stadium. And, seriously, the Liverpool game and the Grand Final at Adelaide Oval are 2 events that happened in the 15 years of Adelaide United. You would never ever get that kind of a crowd for a regular game, or even a game against Melbourne Victory. A stadium selling out twice in 15 years? No thank you.

Give me a sold-out 16,000 Coopers Stadium any day above that. The atmosphere is electric.
On a side note, the Roar have realised this and moved to a smaller ground in the suburbs.
Has more news come out about this? It was reported pre-covid that they were going to move to a suburban ground but there was no additional information. It made for a fun few days of speculation on 442 but that was it.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

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South Australia...LOL
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Llessur2002 »

Surely we're always going to have a problem attracting large numbers of Aussies to the soccer because the vast majority of noteworthy games are played on the other side of the world in the middle of the night. Australia doesn't and will likely never have a league large and talent-filled enough to compete with the European and South American games and therefore pretty much anything played here will B grade by default. Throwing money and infrastructure at a fairly average code in the hope of a sustained increase in spectator numbers is a gamble at best.

I also suspect that the healthy youth participation figures in this country are a bit of a red herring - there's a bit of a leap between playing a game with your school team and remaining a hardcore soccer fan into adulthood, willing to sit up all night in front of an expensive subscription TV service and/or mustering up some passion watching second class games in this country. Schools love soccer because the rules are simple, it requires bugger all equipment, it can easily be scaled to available playing surfaces and player numbers and it's relatively low-contact.

16,000-20,000 feels about right for a soccer stadium here in Adelaide. Coopers has great potential to be improved at a much lower cost to the taxpayer whilst retaining much of the benefit of being right in the middle of the city. If it needs significant modifications then demolish or move the heritage listed church - many far more worthy buildings have been sacrificed in Adelaide for much smaller developments.
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by urban »

I highly doubt it is a red herring. I'd love to see a comparison between youth participation rates at club level between Football (soccer) and Aussie Rules. I would expect them to be fairly equal in the traditional Aussie Rules states with Football well ahead in the Rugby States.

School participation, Football would be well ahead for the reasons Llessur mentioned.

The commitment required at club level for Juniors is much higher for Football than Aussie Rules. Comparisons below.
Fees - Football $800-$1,800 Aussie Rules $200-$400
Training Duration - Football Dec to Oct Aussie Rules Mar to Oct
Training Frequency - Football 2-3 /week Aussie Rules 1/week

Both have elite programs on top of these commitments
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[VIS] Re: New inner-city stadium

Post by Llessur2002 »

urban wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:44 pm
I highly doubt it is a red herring. I'd love to see a comparison between youth participation rates at club level between Football (soccer) and Aussie Rules. I would expect them to be fairly equal in the traditional Aussie Rules states with Football well ahead in the Rugby States.
I didn't mean that the stats weren't true, I just question whether high youth participation figures will ever translate to attendance at A-League games. Does the primary passion of these young players lie with Aussie teams or do they really just follow the European games and the Socceroos? Of the youngsters I know who play soccer I think pretty much all of them identify themselves as fans of English teams (despite having no recent English heritage) and rarely, if ever, mention Adelaide United. Anecdotally, I would also estimate the number of European soccer shirts I people wearing day-to-day outnumbers those of Aussie teams by at least 3 to 1.

Whilst I don't question the popularity of soccer, the high quality leagues and players will always be concentrated on the other side of the world. Unless something incredibly substantial changes I don't see the A-league as being able to compete sufficiently in order to justify the 'build it and they will come' argument.
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