News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

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rubberman
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by rubberman »

ChillyPhilly wrote:The latest:

Basically AEMO has a bit more power (no pun intended) in September 28-level events.

http://www.aemc.gov.au/Rule-Changes/Eme ... sheet.aspx
Apologies if I sound a bit like I'm nit-picking here. However, the regulators always had the power to make these rules. They just failed to keep up.

The reason for the nit-pick is that there's been a lot of blame flying round at high level (where "blame" is brown, squishy and malodorous), directed at politics, renewables, publicly owned generators, power distributors and regulators. So, the distinction between whether the regulators could have done something or should have done something is a critical one.
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Nathan
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by Nathan »

Weatherill has announced that Neoen and Tesla have won the contract to build the world's largest lithium-ion battery storage in SA.

https://twitter.com/JayWeatherill/statu ... 5285520384
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by SBD »

Nathan wrote:Weatherill has announced that Neoen and Tesla have won the contract to build the world's largest lithium-ion battery storage in SA.

https://twitter.com/JayWeatherill/statu ... 5285520384
I guess it's enough to get the state over the hump as people go home from work and turn on their air conditioners on a hot summer afternoon, but in the scale of a power grid, it really doesn't sound like much.

Josh Frydenberg's sarcastic and critical tone didn't really add anything though.
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by Goodsy »

SBD wrote:
Nathan wrote:Weatherill has announced that Neoen and Tesla have won the contract to build the world's largest lithium-ion battery storage in SA.

https://twitter.com/JayWeatherill/statu ... 5285520384
I guess it's enough to get the state over the hump as people go home from work and turn on their air conditioners on a hot summer afternoon, but in the scale of a power grid, it really doesn't sound like much.

Josh Frydenberg's sarcastic and critical tone didn't really add anything though.
despite it not being very big, IIRC if it existed last year it would have been big enough to counteract the statewide blackout
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by rubberman »

GoodSmackUp wrote:
SBD wrote:
Nathan wrote:Weatherill has announced that Neoen and Tesla have won the contract to build the world's largest lithium-ion battery storage in SA.

https://twitter.com/JayWeatherill/statu ... 5285520384
I guess it's enough to get the state over the hump as people go home from work and turn on their air conditioners on a hot summer afternoon, but in the scale of a power grid, it really doesn't sound like much.

Josh Frydenberg's sarcastic and critical tone didn't really add anything though.
despite it not being very big, IIRC if it existed last year it would have been big enough to counteract the statewide blackout
There are a few things it can do. The first is to provide enough time to ramp up Pelican Point if need be.

The second is that during peak days, there are times when prices spike to eye-watering levels for short periods. A supply like this will drastically reduce those short term price spikes, because the batteries can feed in immediately. It will make it a lot harder for generators to game the system by withholding supply for a few minutes here and there.

The third is that having a power storage next to a wind farm means that excess capacity can be stored away in future, whereas previously the wind generators would not have been able to store and sell later. It makes a big difference to the total amount a wind farm can put out over 24hours.
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PeFe
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by PeFe »

rubberman wrote: There are a few things it can do. The first is to provide enough time to ramp up Pelican Point if need be.
Pelican Point is due to return to full time permanent service this month (and maybe a slight increase in capacity)
With Victoria facing the possibility of shortages next summer (remember one of their two big coal power stations recently closed)
the amount of electricity available to South Australia from the interconnector during an extreme heat wave may be nothing.
This is why the SA government is planning on hiring diesel generators next summer to make up for the shortfall, same for the large battery, it provides extra generation in peak periods, whether this is enough we will have to wait and see.

Extreme electricity demand during heatwaves is a complex issue to deal with, not just for renewables, but for conventional coal/gas power generation as well. NSW came within a whisker of load shedding (selective blackouts to ease power consumption) during this year's heatwave...the NSW goverment asked the Hunter Valley smelter to power down (as it is the state's largest electricity consumer) otherwise Sydney would have experienced selective balckouts.......and this is a system where 85% of the energy comes from coal or gas....
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by bits »

PeFe wrote: NSW came within a whisker of load shedding (selective blackouts to ease power consumption) during this year's heatwave...the NSW goverment asked the Hunter Valley smelter to power down (as it is the state's largest electricity consumer) otherwise Sydney would have experienced selective balckouts.......
Load shedding is load shedding.
Nsw was not "within a whisker" they had real world load shedding.

Selective blackouts is exactly what SA and NSW had for their same week events.
SA load shedding was due to mismanagment by aemo to get available generators online for reasonable to expect peak demand. Eg capacity was available to meet peak demand but was left offline due to aemo direction. 100mw shortfall for 20 minutes.
NSW load shedding was due to shortfall in peak generation capacity. Eg capacity was simply not available/possible to meet peak demand. 300mw shortfall for 60minutes.
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by stumpjumper »

I'd like to see a cost/benefit analysis of the battery proposal.

It's clearly politically beneficial. Weatherill's adoring gaze towards Elon Musk indicates that. But is it worth it? There will be no development application and no environmental impact study. It will simply be built.

It's ironic that SA, which according to Weatherill 'leads the world' in renewable power relies on diesel and a battery to deliver the world's most expensive electricity with zero meaurable effect on global warming.

Weatherill doesn't care - he will never struggle to pay an electricity bill. Unlike the thousands of taxpayers whose payments will go towards Weatherill's election winning battery strategy.

If only we had an Opposition this state worthy of the name, Weatherill and Koutsantonis, like Rann and Foley before them, might not get away with so much without proper scrutiny.
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by bits »

stumpjumper wrote: It's ironic that SA, which according to Weatherill 'leads the world' in renewable power relies on diesel and a battery to deliver the world's most expensive electricity with zero meaurable effect on global warming.
"Zero measurable effect on global warming" is the worst argument.
Throwing your McDonalds wrapper out the window of your car has zero measurable effect on global uncollected rubbish.
Throwing your sperm up as many women as possible has zero measurable effect on global population.
Your vote makes no measurable difference in an election.

You cant go knock on a China door and tell them they need to turn off their lights while an Australian is allowed to run their aircon 24/7.
If you want any chance to sit at the table and tell others what to do, you need to be doing at least what you request of them.

An average Chinese person lives, goes to work and creates much less pollution than the average Australian doing the same thing.
Humans create polution, not countries, surely the fairest system is if every human has the same polution level.
Unless you want to start saying someone in a more populated country like usa or china has less rights to access lighting and heating etc.

It is a nonsense argument to say pollution is only a china and usa problem just because their countries have land and water that can sustain more people.
Would it help world pollution to break china in to 100 seperate countries so that any single country has much better pollution levels than Australia. They could then unite under the title of Chinese Union?
World problems fixed by drawing a few extra lines on a map?
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by rubberman »

Stumpjumper, the Liberals privatised the power supply in 1997.

Therefore, electricity in SA is no more a government responsibility than any other private sector concern, surely?

So, why blame the ALP if the private sector let the Tom Playford Power Station run down, and then bugger off?

If, on the other hand, power IS a government responsibility, then why did the Liberals privatise it?

Why did the Liberal Party go against the philosophy of one of its most respected leaders, Sir Thomas Playford in this? (Respected, I might say by both Parties).

What exactly is the Liberal Party proposing as an alternative? If anything?

Let the Liberals answer those questions first.

Having said all that, the ALP should have predicted that the private sector would run the system into the ground and run away, leaving us in the cold. So, why haven't they been preparing for this? It's not as if they couldn't have been beating the Liberals up over this, and making plans for the past couple of years.

As for renewable energy, if we didn't have that, we would now be in really dire straits. Be thankful it exists, SA would be in ruins without it.
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by SRW »

I think a lot of the 'Labor should have done this or that' crying ignores the fact we don't operate in a vacuum as far as energy policy is concerned. We are part of a national market for electricity and climate change policy otherwise is largely a Commonwealth perogative. Had we had a clear approach to emissions reduction and a responsible market regulator, South Australia wouldn't have had to declare the system dead and go its own way. The private sector would have had clarity to proceed with appropriate investments in generation.

It's not fair either to say the writing was on the wall because of all policy the flip flopping we have seen over the last 7 years. For the same reason as the private sector stalled investment, it wasn't prudent for the state to act solo without knowing the score. I don't think anyone knew with any confidence when or how dire the situation would be. At least SA Labor has stepped up to stop it getting worse.
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PeFe
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

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From Renew Economy
The title of Australia’s largest solar farm under construction will switch from Queensland to South Australia this week when Reach Solar issues a notice to proceed with the second stage of its Bungala solar farm near Port Augusta.

Image

The company began construction and the grid connection of its first 110MW stage back in April, after reaching financial close and a obtaining a power purchase agreement from Origin Energy.

This week, the second stage – also 110MW – will effectively begin construction, putting it ahead of a handful of 100MW projects in Queensland (such as Sun Metals’ 116MW solar project and the 140MW Clare solar project, and making it the largest solar farm actually under construction in Australia.

The solar farm is being built just 12kms east of Port Augusta, where the last coal fired generator was shut down early last year, and could be added to if the company wins a government tender for “dispatchable” generation that could add another 80MW of solar and battery storage.

Full article : http://reneweconomy.com.au/australias-l ... ion-65756/
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by SBD »

The very first article in this thread is dated March 2007 (over ten years ago), about a news report that Flinders Power proposed building a 450MW gas-fired peaking power station at Redbanks, near Mallala, estimated to cost $350 million.

A couple of weeks ago, ABC and a few local newspapers picked up Alinta Energy drafting plans for 300MW power plant north of Adelaide The proposal has been downsized with an increase in cost, the parent company has changed and it's moved across the road from Redbanks to Reeves Plains (both are between Gawler and Mallala).
Alinta Energy is seeking a permit for a 300-megawatt gas-fired power station to be built about one hour north of Adelaide at a cost of $450 million, just over a year after closing coal-fired stations at Port Augusta.

It is drafting a development application for a six-turbine natural-gas-fired plant at Reeves Plains, although it says the first stage will likely result in a 100 to 150MW plant with up to three turbines.
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by bits »

I thought the demolition of Port Augusta power stations would be further along than they currently look.

Pictured is Port Augusta power stations.
Picture taken 9/8/17
Left of picture is the more modern(80's) and larger "Northern", right of picture is the older(50's) and smaller "Playford B". Playford A now empty building is likely still behind Playford B.

Seems as slow as the Port Stanvac refinery demolisition.

Demolition videos:
http://flinderspower.com.au/augusta-power-stations/

Playford A/B were supposed to reach end of life late 80's/early 90's but were operational till 2015, nearly doubling their original expected life.

Some history and pictures:
http://www.awesomeadelaide.com/disused- ... 00db63.jpg[/IMG]
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PeFe
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Re: News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

Post by PeFe »

Latest trial to integrate wind power as a "base stabiliser". Is this a precursor to using the 100mw battery this way?

From Renew Economy
AEMO set to trial wind farm’s ability to stabilise S.A. grid
Image
An Australia-first trial to demonstrate the ability of wind farms to provide crucial grid stabilising services traditionally supplied by “baseload” coal and gas plants, is now set to begin in October.

The South Australia-based trial, first flagged in February, and originally scheduled for June, will use the recently completed 100MW Hornsdale 2 wind farm, by French renewables developer Neoen, who has put $300,000 towards the trial, alongside another $300,000 from ARENA.
The trial, which is being conducted in conjunction with the Australian Energy Market Operator, will test the ability of Hornsdale 2 to provide frequency control and ancillary services (FCAS) – a critical component of grid security that is traded on the NEM while remotely controlled by AEMO.

This will be followed by a NEM trial, which will run for 48 hours to test Hornsdale’s ability to fully participate in the electricity and FCAS markets.

Full article : http://reneweconomy.com.au/aemo-set-tri ... rid-63671/
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