News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

[Nathan]

Or alternatively, we re-organise a majority of the bus routes to be feeders for rail – increasing the effectiveness of rail, and limiting the number of buses entering the CBD. Have our different modes complimenting each other, rather than running buses as a fill in where we can't run rail.

[monotonehell]

For those advocating converting Glenelg tram or OH train to busway, you cannot compare these lines to the OBahn because of the level crossings. There are no level crossings on the Obahn. Converting OH or Glenelg to a proper high speed track will require elevating the whole track to remove level crossings as the concrete tracks would be too wide for the cars to traverse, unlike steel rails which can be laid into the road surface at level crossings. If level crossings are present along these routes, a busway becomes illogical, as the buses would need to slow as they leave the dedicated track.

OBahn tracks do not need to be run across intersections when at grade. That's one of the features of OBahn - the bus just drives over the intersection and back onto the guides the other side. It's how they've done it in Cambridge (that's the guided busway that beat Adelaide's as 'longest in the World' a few years ago). Being at grade will require the buses (as it does trams) to slow down to go over the road, but it's still much more efficient in their own reserve than sharing the road with other vehicles. In fact Adelaide's OBahn is unusual in that most other busways are not completely grade separated.

As others have mentioned, we already have some grade separation on the tram route, further grade separation could be completed progressively.

[claybro]

OBahn tracks do not need to be run across intersections when at grade. That's one of the features of OBahn - the bus just drives over the intersection and back onto the guides the other side. It's how they've done it in Cambridge (that's the guided busway that beat Adelaide's as 'longest in the World' a few years ago). Being at grade will require the buses (as it does trams) to slow down to go over the road, but it's still much more efficient in their own reserve than sharing the road with other vehicles. In fact Adelaide's OBahn is unusual in that most other busways are not completely grade separated.

That's fine where the stops are spaced about 5km apart as the are on the NE busway, and the Cambridge example. but exiting the guide and re-entering requires significant slowing from speed and then acceleration once back on guides, and where breaks in the track are spaced close together as they would be with the significant number of level crossings on the Glenelg line, then the a reduction in average speed, and therefore capacity on the route becomes problematical. For a Glenelg busway to be viable, grade separation and a significant number of stops would need to be removed, to make it even comparable with the NE busway (since this is what is actually being argued).

As others have mentioned, we already have some grade separation on the tram route, further grade separation could be completed progressively.

Now elevate the routes along their entire length to achieve similar speeds to the NE busway and see how happy the folk of Glandore etc are with 20 buses an our whizzing past their rooftops.

[rubberman]

OBahn tracks do not need to be run across intersections when at grade. That's one of the features of OBahn - the bus just drives over the intersection and back onto the guides the other side. It's how they've done it in Cambridge (that's the guided busway that beat Adelaide's as 'longest in the World' a few years ago). Being at grade will require the buses (as it does trams) to slow down to go over the road, but it's still much more efficient in their own reserve than sharing the road with other vehicles. In fact Adelaide's OBahn is unusual in that most other busways are not completely grade separated.

That's fine where the stops are spaced about 5km apart as the are on the NE busway, and the Cambridge example. but exiting the guide and re-entering requires significant slowing from speed and then acceleration once back on guides, and where breaks in the track are spaced close together as they would be with the significant number of level crossings on the Glenelg line, then the a reduction in average speed, and therefore capacity on the route becomes problematical. For a Glenelg busway to be viable, grade separation and a significant number of stops would need to be removed, to make it even comparable with the NE busway (since this is what is actually being argued).

As others have mentioned, we already have some grade separation on the tram route, further grade separation could be completed progressively.

Now elevate the routes along their entire length to achieve similar speeds to the NE busway and see how happy the folk of Glandore etc are with 20 buses an our whizzing past their rooftops.

At most crossings now, the trams go dead slow, so what's the difference? 5-10 seconds? Trams dawdle at stops longer than that.

Mind you, if these are the only arguments against O-Bahnification, it actually looks pretty good.

It might also prompt the trams to run a bit faster. Say as fast as the H cars used to run. That would be a great step forward.

[Norman]

So what problem would this new O-Bahn solve? I have caught busses daily along Marion Road and Anzac Highway for almost two decades and, really the main delay is the tram crossing at Marion Road. Apart that most of Anzac Highway flows smoothly even during peak hours.



And removing the tram will mean that hundreds of course we'll have a close public transport option taken away, because the busses won't stop as frequently as a tram would.

[claybro]

At most crossings now, the trams go dead slow, so what's the difference? 5-10 seconds? Trams dawdle at stops longer than that.Mind you, if these are the only arguments against O-Bahnification, it actually looks pretty good.It might also prompt the trams to run a bit faster. Say as fast as the H cars used to run. That would be a great step forward.

I guess when Adelaide commuters envisage a Glenelg or OH Obahn, they are comparing to an experience similar to the existing NE busway and comparing it to the current operation of Glenelg tram and OH heavy rail. There is no reason the current Glenelg tram is so slow. There is no reason the OH train is so inadequate. These are not accurate comparisons of the competing systems. That being the case, just speed up the existing tram, introduce some more express services, fix the OH train and be done. The number one reason some are advocating a change from rail to Obahn in Adelaide is that the NE busway is so popular. Yes it is! It is so popular because it is the only mass transit, in a very heavily populated and expanding NE corridor, with very limited arterial road options. If the NE busway changed to a heavy rail or light rail tomorrow would be any reduction in patronage?? I doubt it.

[bits]

It is so popular because it is the only mass transit, in a very heavily populated and expanding NE corridor, with very limited arterial road options. If the NE busway changed to a heavy rail or light rail tomorrow would be any reduction in patronage?? I doubt it.

it is so popular because it is the only mass transit, in a very heavily populated and expanding NE corridor, with very limited arterial road options. If the NE busway changed to a heavy rail or light rail tomorrow would be any reduction in patronage?? I doubt it.

I think NE has more viable road paths to the city than any other region of Adelaide.
There is an absurd amount of roads that lead to the city.
North East Rd
Lower North East/Payneham Road
Bridge/Hampstead/Briens Road
Main North Road

And you can push out sideways via Grand Junction Road
Montague Road
Muller/Regency Road
Glyneburn Road
Portrush Road.

To connect with roads like
Salisbury Highway/South Road
Magill Road



Vs from South / South West region where everything is fed from three roads that themself lead to each other.
Anzac Highway
South Road
Goodwood Road

Side ways(these most all lead to Anzac Highway or South Road also)
Dyson/Lonsdale/Brighton Road
Marion Road
Morphett Road
Daws/Oaklands Road


Vs North West
Port Road
Torrens Road

Sideways
Military Road
Tapleys Hill Road
Grand Junction Road
PREXY
Regency Road

Connects to
South Road
Findon Road
Churchill Road





NE is not short on major roads.

[claybro]

And the alternatives for commuters travelling from the area surrounding TTP are realistically none of those. No freeways, expressways, or even 80km/h zones. Just stop start 60 km/ h gridlock, which grinds to a halt around Scottys corner, or... The Obahn. No wonder it is popular.. It's quick. But ask those on the bus each day would they prefer a train, travelling at 130 km/h with only 3 stations from TTP to the city... Well I know what I would prefer.

[Goodsy]

And the alternatives for commuters travelling from the area surrounding TTP are realistically none of those. No freeways, expressways, or even 80km/h zones. Just stop start 60 km/ h gridlock, which grinds to a halt around Scottys corner, or... The Obahn. No wonder it is popular.. It's quick. But ask those on the bus each day would they prefer a train, travelling at 130 km/h with only 3 stations from TTP to the city... Well I know what I would prefer.

Those people catching the train would then need to get to the train station, the majority would drive rather then get on a bus.

[bits]

And the alternatives for commuters travelling from the area surrounding TTP are realistically none of those. No freeways, expressways, or even 80km/h zones. Just stop start 60 km/ h gridlock, which grinds to a halt around Scottys corner, or... The Obahn. No wonder it is popular.. It's quick. But ask those on the bus each day would they prefer a train, travelling at 130 km/h with only 3 stations from TTP to the city... Well I know what I would prefer.

North East Road has a time board up for itself and Lower North East Road times near Grand Junction Road to show Lower North East as a very suitable alternative from that point. Both roads are about 15 minutes to the city offpeak and about 20-25 minutes during peak.
The O-Bahn catchment is very large as bus services continue on after the O-Bahn. All the roads I listed are well within the O-Bahn catchment.

NE/Lower NE both flow much better than similar roads like Goodwood/Fullarton/South coming in/out of the city for both peak and offpeak.


There is only 2 stops on the O-Bahn between TTP and the city and it travels at high speeds.

The majority seem to prefer to hop on a single bus service that gets near their house at one end and near their work at the other.

I do not think there is some weird special case happening in the North East region. The region has arguably the best road connection to the city of the outer suburb regions and has arguably the best public transport system of the outer suburbs.
It appears as simple as commuters much prefer the O-Bahn option over trains and trams.


Because the O-Bahn is so popular/cheap and the train/trams so unpopular/expensive, why would you continue to throw good money after bad?

If trains and trams were actually as good as you keep saying they are, those lines would be popular but instead they are not.

[rubberman]

So what problem would this new O-Bahn solve? I have caught busses daily along Marion Road and Anzac Highway for almost two decades and, really the main delay is the tram crossing at Marion Road. Apart that most of Anzac Highway flows smoothly even during peak hours.



And removing the tram will mean that hundreds of course we'll have a close public transport option taken away, because the busses won't stop as frequently as a tram would.

I stated explicitly that trams and buses can run on the same surface. Enabling an O-Bahn on the Glenelg line does not mean getting rid of trams. It means more efficient use of that corridor. course if the O-Bahn is faster than the trams, then eventually trams will go. However, that's something that is a long way off.

[rubberman]

And the alternatives for commuters travelling from the area surrounding TTP are realistically none of those. No freeways, expressways, or even 80km/h zones. Just stop start 60 km/ h gridlock, which grinds to a halt around Scottys corner, or... The Obahn. No wonder it is popular.. It's quick. But ask those on the bus each day would they prefer a train, travelling at 130 km/h with only 3 stations from TTP to the city... Well I know what I would prefer.

Ask those on the Adelaide Metro trains each day would they prefer a train travelling at 130 kM/H...they'd probably prefer that too. I'd like a metro system as well. However, let's keep it in the realms of possibility. Lol. There's no way that 130 kM/H trains are happening in SA in the next 20 years.

[Norman]

So what problem would this new O-Bahn solve? I have caught busses daily along Marion Road and Anzac Highway for almost two decades and, really the main delay is the tram crossing at Marion Road. Apart that most of Anzac Highway flows smoothly even during peak hours.



And removing the tram will mean that hundreds of course we'll have a close public transport option taken away, because the busses won't stop as frequently as a tram would.

I stated explicitly that trams and buses can run on the same surface. Enabling an O-Bahn on the Glenelg line does not mean getting rid of trams. It means more efficient use of that corridor. course if the O-Bahn is faster than the trams, then eventually trams will go. However, that's something that is a long way off.

If they run on the same type of surface/track as a tram that will require another lot of special busses. Which will be expensive. And don't come with a guarantee that they will continue to be manufactured into the future, which means we'll have to settle for second-rate busses again that run rough on the track.

Sounds familiar...

Secondly, I was on the M44 recently on my way to Golden Grove. It left the city packed, with almost no standing room. By the time it left TTP interchange, there were a total of 2 people on board. And this was no isolated incident. I'd love to see some figures how many people use the O-Bahn beyond TTP and Golden Grove Park and Ride.

[rubberman]

So what problem would this new O-Bahn solve? I have caught busses daily along Marion Road and Anzac Highway for almost two decades and, really the main delay is the tram crossing at Marion Road. Apart that most of Anzac Highway flows smoothly even during peak hours.



And removing the tram will mean that hundreds of course we'll have a close public transport option taken away, because the busses won't stop as frequently as a tram would.

I stated explicitly that trams and buses can run on the same surface. Enabling an O-Bahn on the Glenelg line does not mean getting rid of trams. It means more efficient use of that corridor. course if the O-Bahn is faster than the trams, then eventually trams will go. However, that's something that is a long way off.

If they run on the same type of surface/track as a tram that will require another lot of special busses. Which will be expensive. And don't come with a guarantee that they will continue to be manufactured into the future, which means we'll have to settle for second-rate busses again that run rough on the track.

Sounds familiar...

Secondly, I was on the M44 recently on my way to Golden Grove. It left the city packed, with almost no standing room. By the time it left TTP interchange, there were a total of 2 people on board. And this was no isolated incident. I'd love to see some figures how many people use the O-Bahn beyond TTP and Golden Grove Park and Ride.

Ok, let's say in the worst case that technically, something that has worked for years out to the north east won't work out on the Glenelg line as far as O-Bahn technology is concerned. I find that hard to believe, but let's say there's some unlikely problem. There's absolutely nothing to stop the government from making it a busway with rails to allow dual tram and bus operation. Nothing. The buses could still run fast, and improve the utilisation of that corridor.

[claybro]

And the alternatives for commuters travelling from the area surrounding TTP are realistically none of those. No freeways, expressways, or even 80km/h zones. Just stop start 60 km/ h gridlock, which grinds to a halt around Scottys corner, or... The Obahn. No wonder it is popular.. It's quick. But ask those on the bus each day would they prefer a train, travelling at 130 km/h with only 3 stations from TTP to the city... Well I know what I would prefer.

Those people catching the train would then need to get to the train station, the majority would drive rather then get on a bus.

You've not been near an Obahn park and ride then recently? Clearly a huge number of commuters do drive to the Obahn and not take the bus which eventually goes on to the track anyway. And yet the single seat ride is the NUMBER 1 argument for the OBahn.

Ask those on the Adelaide Metro trains each day would they prefer a train travelling at 130 kM/H...they'd probably prefer that too. I'd like a metro system as well. However, let's keep it in the realms of possibility. Lol. There's no way that 130 kM/H trains are happening in SA in the next 20 years.

And here we are discussing changing the Glenelg tram to a dedicated Obahn. Talking of pipe dreams I would say 130km/h trains are far more likely in 30 years.

I stated explicitly that trams and buses can run on the same surface. Enabling an O-Bahn on the Glenelg line does not mean getting rid of trams. It means more efficient use of that corridor. course if the O-Bahn is faster than the trams, then eventually trams will go. However, that's something that is a long way off.

Totally agree with buses using the tram corridor. But to make the buses into an Obahn style corridor, with guide tracks and grade separated (which is what most here actually envisage when making the comparison ) would require huge amounts of physical infrastructure changes to the tram corridor. Surely just easier to speed up the tram.