News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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ml69
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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1336 Post by ml69 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:54 am

rubberman wrote:Like the image I posted of a bus happily running on a tram track, buses and trams can happily share the same space.

So, if the track from South Tce to Brighton Rd were laid in concrete, buses from the city could slot in between the trams...like they do elsewhere in the world.

In that case, express buses could run down the Glenelg line to and from the city, branching off at Goodwood, South, Marion, Morphett, and Brighton Roads. In addition, buses could share the CBD tracks, thus improving bus speeds there, as well as freeing road space for cars in King William St and North Terrace. What's not to like? Everyone wins.

Now, in twenty years or so, when the Flexitys and Citadis need replacement, it's then a simple issue of economics, and passenger satisfaction surveys to see if passengers would prefer trams or an O-Bahn style Glenelg line.

As a tram fan, I might prefer a tram. However, some people just want to get somewhere, and maybe they don't have a preference between O-Bahn and tram. But let's just ask them, rather than theorise.
I think this is an excellent, low-cost suggestion which could substantially reduce travel times for bus services from the South and South West, especially at peak times.

In order to make this arrangement practical, there would need to be a reduction in the number of tram stops, probably confined to the intersections of the major N-S arterial roads of Goodwood, South, Marion, Morphett and Brighton Rd (a tram stop spacing of approx 1.6km). This would speed up Glenelg tram services.

The express bus services utilising the tram alignment could then bypass each tram stop via a passing lane on the left hand side of each tram stop (perhaps for safety reasons the express buses slow down to 40kmh as they bypass each stop).

A similar tram/bus track sharing arrangement could also be adopted on the Outer Harbor line if that is converted to tram line. Buses from Addison Rd, Eastern Parade/Glenroy St and Hanson Rd could utilise the tramline from near where Arndale shopping centre is, into the CBD.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1337 Post by Westside » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:58 pm

What is going on? I don't get the point of this argument.

The method of transportation is completely irrelevant to the success of the o-bahn. Whether there is track or no track, steel wheels or rubber, makes no difference to the passengers. The success lies in the high speeds that are achieved only with grade separation and few stops.

Convert to o-bahn to heavy/light rail and you get the same result. (Some say there is a benefit in the single-seat mode that the o-bahn can operate in during peak, but we know a significant number of passengers walk, ride and drive to the interchanges anyway.) Convert the glengelg tram or OH train to o-bahn and keep level crossings and the number of stops and you get no net benefit for the expense. Now, if you do remove stops, then you start to disadvantage the many users of those stops, who are forced to travel further to catch public transport.

Remember, the o-bahn was built on a greenfield site, so no existing PT users were disadvantaged to the benefit of many. The suggestions on here will disadvantage many for the benefit of a few, when other options are already around. An o-bahn or bus-only lane can easily fit in the median of Anzac Hwy for the same expense, or the multitude of South-East-headed buses can terminate at a nearby heavy rail station (Marion, South, Brighton Rds, all have conveneint transfers), with fast and frequesnt service provided the rest of the way. Let's start thinking smarter, rather than just seeing a line on a map and thinking that must be the only answer.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1338 Post by claybro » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:06 pm

Westside wrote:Remember, the o-bahn was built on a greenfield site, so no existing PT users were disadvantaged to the benefit of many. The suggestions on here will disadvantage many for the benefit of a few, when other options are already around. An o-bahn or bus-only lane can easily fit in the median of Anzac Hwy for the same expense, or the multitude of South-East-headed buses can terminate at a nearby heavy rail station (Marion, South, Brighton Rds, all have conveneint transfers), with fast and frequesnt service provided the rest of the way. Let's start thinking smarter, rather than just seeing a line on a map and thinking that must be the only answer.
The problem is as always Adelaides particular love of single seat journeys. It has been discussed here previously, and is the reason commuters will happily sit on a bus from Elizabeth or Noarlunga to the city, rather than change to train. Because this has been encouraged as it allowed the various governments to not spend money on rail upgrades and interchanges, it has become the norm. There is still no serious effort made at bus/ rail interchanges in Adelaide. It is also the reason Adelaide folk just love the concept of the OBhan. No complicated changes of modes. Doesn't mean it is the best option, or the fastest or most efficient. just people don't want to get out of their warm seat.
On the subject of interchanges though, Ive always wondered why Mitcham station is not used as an interchange servicing buses from the foothills, Daw Park/ Colonel light gardens, Torrens Park etc. Would get some buses off Unley and Goodwood roads. But with that in mind, will we now get some suggestions of turning Belair line into an OBahn? :shock:

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1339 Post by SRW » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:50 am

I think feeding outer metro bus services into rail interchanges will not be a compelling argument to transfer until we have a rail city loop (whether for trains or trams).
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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1340 Post by Waewick » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:15 am

SRW wrote:I think feeding outer metro bus services into rail interchanges will not be a compelling argument to transfer until we have a rail city loop (whether for trains or trams).
thats the problem isn't it.

the model needs to be announced and funded so users have a line of sight

If we get a city loop done first, the spurs can then be added giving all the users a lot more comfort that they will be able to get where they need to.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1341 Post by rubberman » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:36 am

claybro wrote: On the subject of interchanges though, Ive always wondered why Mitcham station is not used as an interchange servicing buses from the foothills, Daw Park/ Colonel light gardens, Torrens Park etc. Would get some buses off Unley and Goodwood roads. But with that in mind, will we now get some suggestions of turning Belair line into an OBahn? :shock:
Well, at some point the question of the Belair line has to be addressed. In no way do the patronage figures support the capital and ongoing cost of keeping it going. Given the winding nature of the track, throwing even more money at it in the form of electrification still can't can't make it fast enough to compete with the freeway. The track's just been upgraded, so there's not much more improvement to eke out there.

Frankly, I doubt that the patronage even justifies an O-Bahn.

Whilst it's nice for the middle classes living near the Belair line having their train so they can get into town when the Lexus is being serviced, and the wife is ferrying the kids to Saints in the SUV, it's a huge cost. As someone recently said, "We have to live within our means." While I personally might have doubts about how to interpret that, theres a lot of other things we could do with the money sunk into the Belair line for the benefit of a relatively few people.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1342 Post by Nathan » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:01 pm

rubberman wrote:
claybro wrote: On the subject of interchanges though, Ive always wondered why Mitcham station is not used as an interchange servicing buses from the foothills, Daw Park/ Colonel light gardens, Torrens Park etc. Would get some buses off Unley and Goodwood roads. But with that in mind, will we now get some suggestions of turning Belair line into an OBahn? :shock:
Well, at some point the question of the Belair line has to be addressed. In no way do the patronage figures support the capital and ongoing cost of keeping it going. Given the winding nature of the track, throwing even more money at it in the form of electrification still can't can't make it fast enough to compete with the freeway. The track's just been upgraded, so there's not much more improvement to eke out there.

Frankly, I doubt that the patronage even justifies an O-Bahn.

Whilst it's nice for the middle classes living near the Belair line having their train so they can get into town when the Lexus is being serviced, and the wife is ferrying the kids to Saints in the SUV, it's a huge cost. As someone recently said, "We have to live within our means." While I personally might have doubts about how to interpret that, theres a lot of other things we could do with the money sunk into the Belair line for the benefit of a relatively few people.
Could they change the Belair line to two seperate services? Run a regular service up to the foothills, and less regular services for the full length to Belair.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1343 Post by rubberman » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:29 pm

Nathan wrote:
Could they change the Belair line to two seperate services? Run a regular service up to the foothills, and less regular services for the full length to Belair.
Given that we have just spent a lot of money on track upgrades, and the diesel railcars are up to spec, we have time to go through all the options, one of which could be as you suggest.

However, the patronage is so low on that line, that there's no shortage of other things that should be on the table.

Further options might be conversion to light rail, conversion to a busway, or even conversion to a dedicated bikeway for hills residents. You'd only need a couple of thousand cyclists a day each way, and that would outnumber people using the train, and would save money which could be diverted to higher usage corridors. With a maximum grade of 2%, it might be attractive for hills cyclists.

Whatever, now is a good time for thinking up alternatives.
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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1344 Post by Waewick » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:31 pm

rubberman wrote:
Nathan wrote:
Could they change the Belair line to two seperate services? Run a regular service up to the foothills, and less regular services for the full length to Belair.
Given that we have just spent a lot of money on track upgrades, and the diesel railcars are up to spec, we have time to go through all the options, one of which could be as you suggest.

However, the patronage is so low on that line, that there's no shortage of other things that should be on the table.

Further options might be conversion to light rail, conversion to a busway, or even conversion to a dedicated bikeway for hills residents. You'd only need a couple of thousand cyclists a day each way, and that would outnumber people using the train, and would save money which could be diverted to higher usage corridors. With a maximum grade of 2%, it might be attractive for hills cyclists.

Whatever, now is a good time for thinking up alternatives.
.
trying to get the patronage would be a good ideea - not sure how they do that though.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1345 Post by rubberman » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:10 pm

Waewick wrote:
rubberman wrote:
Nathan wrote:
Could they change the Belair line to two seperate services? Run a regular service up to the foothills, and less regular services for the full length to Belair.
Given that we have just spent a lot of money on track upgrades, and the diesel railcars are up to spec, we have time to go through all the options, one of which could be as you suggest.

However, the patronage is so low on that line, that there's no shortage of other things that should be on the table.

Further options might be conversion to light rail, conversion to a busway, or even conversion to a dedicated bikeway for hills residents. You'd only need a couple of thousand cyclists a day each way, and that would outnumber people using the train, and would save money which could be diverted to higher usage corridors. With a maximum grade of 2%, it might be attractive for hills cyclists.

Whatever, now is a good time for thinking up alternatives.
.
trying to get the patronage would be a good ideea - not sure how they do that though.
The real problem is that because of curves and grades, the Belair line is slow compared to the freeway.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1346 Post by ml69 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:42 am

Waewick wrote:
SRW wrote:I think feeding outer metro bus services into rail interchanges will not be a compelling argument to transfer until we have a rail city loop (whether for trains or trams).
thats the problem isn't it.

the model needs to be announced and funded so users have a line of sight

If we get a city loop done first, the spurs can then be added giving all the users a lot more comfort that they will be able to get where they need to.
Even a tram loop around the CBD won't be cheap. In these fiscally-constrained times, we probably need to consider doing this in shorter stages, hence making it easier to fund.

I'm thinking the next extension of the tramline in the city should be linking the eastern half of the CBD to the existing tram network. This would involve a modest 2km extension from the North Tce/KW Street corner to Hindmarsh Square, along North Tce, right onto East Tce, right onto Grenfell St and terminating at Hindmarsh Square.

There would be 4 new tram stops located on: (1) North Tce/Kintore Ave ... servicing Adelaide Uni and cultural institutions; (2) North Tce/Pulteney St ... universities and Rundle Mall east; (3) North Tce/East Tce ... very important stop servicing RAH redevelopment, East End, Botanic Gardens and Fringe venues; (4) Hindmarsh Square ... convenient access to Rundle St, Grenfell St and Pirie St.

As it's only 2km long with no road widening etc required, construction cost should be between $60-100M ... a relatively modest spend. Routes could include Hindmarsh Square to South Tce, linking our city's east to the Central Market precinct. Also another route could be Entertainment Centre to Hindmarsh Square, joining North Tce together along its full length (this route would be popular with uni students and workers who work in the eastern half of the city).

Further stages of the tram loop can be completed later as funding permits.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1347 Post by Waewick » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:16 am

How would you go putting the tram down Grenfel with all the buses?

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1348 Post by rubberman » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:46 am

Waewick wrote:How would you go putting the tram down Grenfel with all the buses?
There's no reason why buses couldn't run on the tram track. Also, from East Terrace to Hindmarsh Square it's not as intensive bus wise as from the Square to West Terrace.

Having buses share tram tracks is common in Europe. It takes buses off the roads, makes them faster, and also makes it easier for car drivers and cyclists when buses are taken off car lanes and don't pull into the curb. Of course, they don't have centre islands either.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1349 Post by SouthAussie94 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:10 am

rubberman wrote:
Waewick wrote:How would you go putting the tram down Grenfel with all the buses?
There's no reason why buses couldn't run on the tram track. Also, from East Terrace to Hindmarsh Square it's not as intensive bus wise as from the Square to West Terrace.

Having buses share tram tracks is common in Europe. It takes buses off the roads, makes them faster, and also makes it easier for car drivers and cyclists when buses are taken off car lanes and don't pull into the curb. Of course, they don't have centre islands either.
The issue with buses using the tram corridor in the CBD as it currently stands is the island stops. The platform is on the wrong side for a bus to use...
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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport

#1350 Post by SouthAussie94 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:25 am

rubberman wrote:
Waewick wrote:How would you go putting the tram down Grenfel with all the buses?
There's no reason why buses couldn't run on the tram track. Also, from East Terrace to Hindmarsh Square it's not as intensive bus wise as from the Square to West Terrace.

Having buses share tram tracks is common in Europe. It takes buses off the roads, makes them faster, and also makes it easier for car drivers and cyclists when buses are taken off car lanes and don't pull into the curb. Of course, they don't have centre islands either.
The issue with buses using the tram corridor in the CBD as it currently stands is the island stops. The platform is on the wrong side for a bus to use...
"All we are is bags of bones pushing against a self imposed tide. Just be content with staying alive"

Views and opinions expressed are my own and don't necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any organisation of which I have an affiliation

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