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What's your answer to the multi-billion dollar question?

Here's mine, a work in progress.
Starting from the intersection of CityWest Bypass and South Road, the 'freeway' would use this corridor, over the Bakewell Underpass, along Deviation Road, and into a tunnel underneath North Adelaide, connecting to the O-Bahn - which should be dismantled - and the 1968 MATS; Modbury Freeway reinstated along its corridor. Making use of the phenomenally wide reservations of the road corridors of Main North Road and McIntyre Road, it's quite possible to run the freeway along this route. The Northern Expressway would still act as a freight bypass to the Port, but not used as the main freeway corridor. It links Adelaide's north and south very well, by going through areas of large traffic catchment.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8& ... 77248&z=14

Calls to replace the OBahn with a rail corridor I can tolerate, as it's replacing one for of PT with another. But duplicating the Main NE and Lwr NE Roads with another vehicle way AND eliminating a high capacity public transport corridor is just crazy -- we're supposed to be discouraging private transport and encouraging public transport.

Oh, but Mono, if I were king, my master-plan would have a rail corridor in the middle of the freeway, just like they have done with the Kiwiana Freeway in Perth.

I doubt there is enough room on the O-Bahn corridor for a Road-Rail corridor.

I lol'd.

There isn't enough room Norman, property acquisition would be required. I personally see nothing wrong with what you've stated Shuz, but whether parts of it are 'Engineeringly' possible, I don't know. I've been thinking of and sketching similar ideas in the past, but have simply not had the knowledge of how to put them onto a GoogleMaps style thing (where you can zoom in, zoom out, pan, etc.) like you did Shuz. Aidan and others have also done so, can someone inform me as to how this is done?

BTW, I fell down the stairs today and a jagged white thing is sticking out of my arm! Is this swine flu?!

Sorry, thought I'd quote a comment made on Twitter about the disease which many doctors think is not as big as the media is hyping it up to be. Other diseases which we should be more concerned about are Meningococcal and Whooping cough. The latter is going around Adelaide such that even I have it! (Well I was vaccinated, so I have a minor version of it ).

Shuz wrote:Oh, but Mono, if I were king, my master-plan would have a rail corridor in the middle of the freeway, just like they have done with the Kiwiana Freeway in Perth.

At five times wider than the OBahn, the Torrens would be relegated to a pipe and Linear Park would be no more...

Shuz wrote:Oh, but Mono, if I were king, my master-plan would have a rail corridor in the middle of the freeway, just like they have done with the Kiwiana Freeway in Perth.

Shuz, is that picture of a highway running through some empty wasteland devoid of people really your heart's desire? With railway stations surrounded by huge park-and-ride lots? What was linear park now surrounded by 10ft tall sound walls?

And if your freeway has exits downtown, that rather diminishes the appeal for people to ride the trains that you've added.

Slightly off topic i know (and its probably been discussed before) but what is SA's obsession with building UNDERPASSES along South Road as opposed to OVERPASSES.
I spent about 20 minutes this morning at the Emerson Overpass (South/Cross Roads waiting for train after train) and was thinking that overpasses would be cheaper, quicker and take up less land acquisition then underpasses (e.g Galipoli underpass).
I guess that the main reason is aesthetics but the Emerson overpass doesnt look that bad for its era and nowadays modern designs dramatically improve the look of them. Surely two overpasses equates to roughly one underpass in cost measures in half the time.
I was also talking to an engineering mate and he said that underpasses/tunnels on the Adelaide plain cost so much to build (compared to similar sized projects in Sydney) because they are constructing them in clay/soil as opposed to bedrock which acts as a natural tunnel when dug out (if that makes sense). If this is the case then surely overpasses for Adelaide make much more sense economically speaking due to the engineering and design of them.
If this North/South corridor ever gets built (and i have my doubts) in the next 10 years with underpasses the costs are going to be massive compared with overpasses which we could complete in half the time with a lot less disruption.
I am aware that some overpasses are being planned up near Wingfield but surely at intersections such as Sir Donald Bradman, Henley Beach and Richmond Roads underpasses will ruled out.
Any suggestions?????

Prince George wrote:

Shuz wrote:Oh, but Mono, if I were king, my master-plan would have a rail corridor in the middle of the freeway, just like they have done with the Kiwiana Freeway in Perth.

Shuz, is that picture of a highway running through some empty wasteland devoid of people really your heart's desire? With railway stations surrounded by huge park-and-ride lots? What was linear park now surrounded by 10ft tall sound walls?

And if your freeway has exits downtown, that rather diminishes the appeal for people to ride the trains that you've added.

That freeway spans from Joondalup to Mandurah and the rail corridor in the middle works very well - who cares about the noise walls? atleast there are actually "suburban train stations" in perth, unlike the dodgy platforms they have here

raulduke wrote:That freeway spans from Joondalup to Mandurah and the rail corridor in the middle works very well - who cares about the noise walls? atleast there are actually "suburban train stations" in perth, unlike the dodgy platforms they have here

I dare say the noise walls are to reduce freeway noise, rather than the noise from the electric trains.

Rail lines down the middle of a freeway are fine if the freeway is level enough, and there is the space for it. This is what's happening with the Northern Connector. However, the ammount of land a freeway would require through Adelaide's close-knit suburbs, would need to be doubled to fit a double-track rail line down the middle. Alternatively, as has already been suggested, get rid of the Linear Park, put the Torrens in a pipe, and use that corridor. No thanks.

Shuz wrote:What's your answer to the multi-billion dollar question?

Here's mine, a work in progress.
Starting from the intersection of CityWest Bypass and South Road, the 'freeway' would use this corridor, over the Bakewell Underpass, along Deviation Road, and into a tunnel underneath North Adelaide, connecting to the O-Bahn - which should be dismantled - and the 1968 MATS; Modbury Freeway reinstated along its corridor. Making use of the phenomenally wide reservations of the road corridors of Main North Road and McIntyre Road, it's quite possible to run the freeway along this route. The Northern Expressway would still act as a freight bypass to the Port, but not used as the main freeway corridor. It links Adelaide's north and south very well, by going through areas of large traffic catchment.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8& ... 77248&z=14

Wow, you've even retained the MATS Plan's alignment across the Wynn Vale Gullies! From this I can confidently surmise that you've never been there.

But what's the point of your plan? It's not as if the NE suburbs are in any particular need of a freeway. North East Road is adequate for the volume of traffic that uses it, and the O-Bahn is very effective in linking those suburbs with the City. Normal bus routes may not be enjoyable to ride, but the O-Bahn certainly is, running at a decent speed on tracks through a parkland environment

Nor is a Modbury freeway particularly useful for freight, as the freight in the NE suburbs mostly comes from the industrial NW suburbs. As for the rest, there are roads in practically all directions, mostly uncongested even in peak hour.

This all looks to me like a third rate solution in search of a problem!

As I have written earlier, I now think the best eventual option for a nonstop N-S corridor would be in tunnel beneath Morphett Road, Adelaide Airport, Findon Road and the railway to the eastern part of Port Adelaide, where it would join the Port River Expressway and Grand Trunkway. I have now added the route to the Not Investigated section of my website.

A reply I made earlier on the South Road thread was off topic there but relates directly to this, so I'm moving it here:

adam73837 wrote: Yes there are a lot of roads in the Northern and Southern Suburbs that are parallel to South Road. Just on your comment about English Roads being upgraded in a similar way, do you think that since Adelaide is such a North-South Orientated city, it would be a good idea to include grade separations on the East-West Routes, then have the Tollway(s ) (which I'll discuss later in my post) serving the North-South Route?

No I don't. Most of the E-W routes don't have the traffic levels to justify grade separation, and we would be better off encouraging a modal shift onto public transport. A possible exception is Lower NE Road (which itself collects traffic from several E-W roads) and Magill Road together funnelling so much traffic into North Terrace (Kent Town) but even that's less of a problem as it might appear, because Fullarton Road enables some of the traffic to avoid it.

And remember we do already have one fully grade separated road (Port River Expressway) and it's also planned to grade separate Grand Junction Road at Gepps Cross.

adam73837 wrote:

Aidan wrote:that's the reason why a tunnel under the City is so important.

I definitely agree that a railway tunnel under the city, like you put forward in your plan is VERY important. The benefits that it would give to the City Square Mile would be incredible. I also agree that:

Aidan wrote:the nation is in no danger whatsoever of going bankrupt. If anything it's not investing enough in infrastructure.

I agree with you 100%. My dad went to a conference several months ago where one of ANZs top bankers gave a presentation about going into debt (... or something like that ). He said that there is nothing wrong with going into debt with infrastructure which you will get a return from. An underground railway and a tollway would both generate such revenue (...eventually ).

Generating revenue eventually isn't really good enough when it's possible to get a better return on the money. The main benefits of transport infrastructure are the indirect benefits, as they would enable things to be done that wouldn't otherwise be practical. The case for tall buildings in the City would be a lot weaker if they needed to provide parking spaces for everyone.

adam73837 wrote:

Aidan wrote:There was a long term plan to link Marion Road with Hanson Road. Obviously this would involve aligning it and Holbrooks Road, though quite how Holbrooks and Hanson Roads would be linked I don't know. Nor do I know if the plan is still on the official long term agenda, but it could be done if necessary.

Aidan wrote:If we do ever need an underground tollway, I now think it would be better to construct it under Morphett Road and Findon Road, serving Adelaide Airport directly.

Speaking of which, since my last 'era of posts' I took your suggestions on board and have been doing sketches looking at different routes for such a thing. I have also been looking at books about European Cities and if there's one thing I've noticed that cities like London, Manchester, Paris, Munich and Stuttgart (which I just finished a project on in SACE Stage 1 German Continuers) is that the all have ring roads, etc.

Yes. That's something that's not practical in Adelaide because of our proximity to the coast.

Building a tollway like the one you mention to go beneath Marion Road, serve the airport, etc. then head towards Dry Creek via Holbrooks Road, East Terrace, Rosetta Street, Days Road and South Road wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Actually I think it would be such a bad idea. If it's to directly serve the airport, it's much better to run beneath Morphett Road. Joining the (duplicated) Southern Expressway at Majors Road (with an entrance from Majors Road) it would provide a route that would be much shorter as well as much quicker to all the outer suburban suburbs, and could make it easier to get to intermediate destinations such as Marion Shopping Centre.

One of the reasons I prefer a Morphett Road alignment is that it does something other than duplicate the function of South Road. Your idea doesn't seem to at all. Traffic from the Port would have to get onto South Road, and once it does that it may as well stay on South Road. Likewise for traffic from the Northern Suburbs.

it would also serve well in bypassing freight from the city

There's not much freight from the City as it is. You don't need to grade separate the roads to get the trucks to bypass it - the vast majority do already!

and, if built in conjunction with a connection to the S-E Freeway, would serve Adelaide very well. Other than these two, I don't think that Adelaide needs to be overrun with freeways like in cities such as LA and Dallas.

Well I suppose that's an improvement from your previous view that the MATS plan would've been a good thing

An extensive and efficient PT System would 'fill in the gaps' ensuring that Adelaide comes close to regaining its status as a 20 minute city.

It should be the basis, not the filler!

Just as an after thought, do you think it would be a good idea to have 'exits' from this North-South Corridor to go along the old Glenelg Railway Corridor for the Traffic to/from the South to access the city and from the North-South Corridor to have something along Port Road for the Traffic to/from the North to access the city?

No I don't, which is why I now think the airport route is better. Getting more traffic to the City is not a desirable objective, as somewhere is needed to park, and it could cause more congestion on City streets. It would be far too disruptive to build on the surface, and the expense of tunnelling couldn't be justified. My original suggestion for a tollway route did run beneath the old Glenelg Railway Corridor to give better access to the City, because I thought it would make it easier to attract enough drivers willing to pay high tolls to make it self funding. But when a grade separated South Road also takes a lot of traffic to the CIty, attracting high tolls is unlikely to be easy. So it's better to go with the route that most improves connectivity. A Morphett Road alignment is best for that. It's due north of Panalatinga Road, but it has been a very long time since you could get directly from one to the other. Some sections of Morphett Road are closed to traffic, while others have been removed completely. Then the airport's in the way, so it can't continue north like the roads a mile on either side. These factors, along with the Oaklands crossing and the Prunus Street diversion for northbound traffic, mean that Morphett Road itself is much less busy than Marion Road, which might make constructing a tunnel under it easier. And while the airport won't attract as many regular journeys as the City, it will attract plenty of irregular ones with a greater proportion of people willing to pay.

waz94 wrote:Slightly off topic i know (and its probably been discussed before) but what is SA's obsession with building UNDERPASSES along South Road as opposed to OVERPASSES.

This might be better suited to the South Road thread, or (as South Road's not the only place underpasses are proposed) a new thread in the Infrastructure/Transport Development section. But as it probably won't run very long, I'll answer it here.

I spent about 20 minutes this morning at the Emerson Overpass (South/Cross Roads waiting for train after train) and was thinking that overpasses would be cheaper, quicker and take up less land acquisition then underpasses (e.g Galipoli underpass).
I guess that the main reason is aesthetics

That's one of the main reasons. Another is accoustics.

but the Emerson overpass doesnt look that bad for its era and nowadays modern designs dramatically improve the look of them. Surely two overpasses equates to roughly one underpass in cost measures in half the time.
I was also talking to an engineering mate and he said that underpasses/tunnels on the Adelaide plain cost so much to build (compared to similar sized projects in Sydney) because they are constructing them in clay/soil as opposed to bedrock which acts as a natural tunnel when dug out (if that makes sense). If this is the case then surely overpasses for Adelaide make much more sense economically speaking due to the engineering and design of them.

Overpasses also cost more in clay soil than in bedrock.

If this North/South corridor ever gets built (and i have my doubts) in the next 10 years with underpasses the costs are going to be massive compared with overpasses which we could complete in half the time with a lot less disruption.
I am aware that some overpasses are being planned up near Wingfield but surely at intersections such as Sir Donald Bradman, Henley Beach and Richmond Roads underpasses will ruled out.
Any suggestions?????

It really depends on the location. Sometimes the terrain is the deciding factor. And sometimes it's what's adjacent to the road. Around where Anzac Highway crosses South Road, it was mainly residential, so it was much better suited to an underpass. When they come to do the South Road/Daws Road intersection, it's a commercial and industrial area so an overpass is a much better option. I think that also applies at the examples you mentioned.

Upon closer observation, to place a 3x3 freeway and rail corridor within the corridor, particularly in the inner suburbs <5km from the city would prove to be a fair bit of a complication. Thereafter, it is manageable, although barely - probably would have some implications on safety (emergency lanes, etc.)

From Grand Junction Road onwards, it's definitely doable, with room to spare!