[U/C] M2 North-South Motorway

[Nort]

Making South Road a toll-road would be incredibly counter productive. As the government says, man people will just avoid it, so the surface level roads will be almost as congested. On top of that the traffic volumes make the amount that tolls could recover a small fraction of the overall project cost.

[claybro]

Making South Road a toll-road would be incredibly counter productive. As the government says, man people will just avoid it, so the surface level roads will be almost as congested. On top of that the traffic volumes make the amount that tolls could recover a small fraction of the overall project cost.

Most commercial traffic, including taxi/uber would be happy to pay tolls-they just add it to their charges,and this project was designed mainly with commercial traffic in mind. Take commercials/ heavy haulage off of South road, and it goes a significant way to freeing up south road proper for local/ and short distance commuter traffic. Of any route in Australia, this would have to be one of the most conducive to tolls as it has an alternative road running along exactly the same route, for those whi wish to avoid tolls. Furthermore, heavy vehicles could be discouraged from sections of south road, by weight/size restrictions. As for volumes making the tolls not worthwhile collecting...well even if tolls only cover the cost of maintenance of the expressway-which will be extensive, it would surely be worth it. SA desperately needs alternative streams of revenue.

[Saltwater]

The widely held opinion within SA that tolls are evil is a great example of country town thinking, that will hold us back in the long term. Personally I don't have an issue paying for a toll here and there if it waves 20 minutes+ per trip. Time is precious and I'd prefer to not spend it sitting in traffic. Charging tolls could also go towards expanding the motorway network to connect the SE motorway, or even towards improving public transport.

[A-Town]

Charging tolls could also go towards expanding the motorway network to connect the SE motorway, or even towards improving public transport.

This is a good point. If tolls can speed up the link between the NS Morotway and the SE Freeway (whatever that link may be) then it will have a decent amount of support from freight and transport companies and, dare I say, regular commuters.

Cross Rd is already bad enough in peak hour.

[rev]

The widely held opinion within SA that tolls are evil is a great example of country town thinking, that will hold us back in the long term. Personally I don't have an issue paying for a toll here and there if it waves 20 minutes+ per trip. Time is precious and I'd prefer to not spend it sitting in traffic. Charging tolls could also go towards expanding the motorway network to connect the SE motorway, or even towards improving public transport.

How much will government save by giving it over to a toll operator like in Melbourne?
Can we expect the equivalent that the gov. will save to be passed on to tax payers with reductions in state taxes, fees etc?

We live in Adelaide, not a global city like Melbourne and Sydney.
There is limited disposable income for the majority in Adelaide.
The answer is not adding an extra cost of living.
It is more then just about delivering these projects sooner.

[abc]

Article in today's Advertiser about tolls for N-S Motorway. If anyone has access can they please share the article?

Property Council SA’s Bruce Djite recommends North-South corridor toll

Would a toll road fast-track the final stage of the North-South Corridor? New Property Council boss Bruce Djite thinks it’s time to debate the idea.
Giuseppe Tauriello

@gtauriello
4 min read
February 10, 2023 - 4:00PM

Bold thinking, starting with a proper debate about the merits of using a toll road to fast-track the final stage of the North-South corridor, is what the state needs to flourish amid the current economic malaise, according to new Property Council SA boss Bruce Djite.

In his first interview since starting his new job last week, Mr Djite has challenged the state government to think outside the square as it faces a global war for talent in the aftermath of Covid.

Mr Djite said there were key areas where strong leadership from the state government was needed, including on the contentious Torrens to Darlington road project and on reining in Adelaide’s urban sprawl.

Delays and redesigns have blown out the cost of T2D to $15.4bn, and Mr Djite said it was time to consider getting the private sector involved in order to make the project a reality.

“South Australia needs to elevate and have more mature conversations relating to infrastructure funding – it should not be taboo to say toll road here, because we’re talking about a $15bn road,” he said.

“Politically it’s hard to prosecute a toll road but we need leadership. A $700m hydrogen plan, merging the unis, LIV Golf are a few examples where we have seen leadership from government.

“But it should also be bipartisan, that’s how they do it. We have to make a choices. Do we want a complex economy, a knowledge economy, investing money in the best and brightest minds that are going to create economic value? Or do we want to spend $15bn on bitumen?”

Revised designs for T2D, revealed in December, came in at a cost of $15.4bn, up from the former Liberal government’s $9.9bn plan in 2021. The state government is in talks with the Commonwealth to top up its commitment and maintain a 50:50 funding split.

The state government has consistently ruled out implementing a user-pay system to finance the project, arguing motorists would avoid the toll road, thereby further congesting the surrounding road network.

Infrastructure and Transport Minister Tom Koutsantonis said the state government remained opposed to private-sector involvement in the T2D project, despite the budget blowout, worsening economic conditions and a tightening of the federal purse.

“The state Labor government has no intention to introduce toll roads on the North-South Corridor or anywhere else. They simply would not work for this project,” he said.

“Nor is the government exploring options for private-sector financing of the project – taxpayers pay taxes, in part, to fund essential motorways such as this one, and this will be a government-funded and delivered project.”

An opposition spokesman said it too was opposed to the use of toll roads in South Australia.

Staunch political opposition locally contrasts with the eastern seaboard, where states have used toll roads to fund a number of major road infrastructure projects.

The country’s largest toll road operator Transurban, which runs Melbourne’s CityLink, Brisbane’s Gateway Motorway and Sydney’s Westlink M7 Motorway, reported this week that a record number of motorists were using its Australian network, with more than 80 per cent of its customers spending less than $10 a week on tolls.

The company’s chief executive Scott Charlton said while toll roads may not necessarily be the answer in Adelaide, where there is less congestion than larger east-coast cities, there were other innovations the private sector could bring to major projects.

“Tolls in someplace like Adelaide, where the congestion is only for shorter periods of time, probably makes it difficult to support a road by itself,” he said.

“But I think getting the private sector involved in some capacity can always be a positive thing by getting innovation, getting a different way of looking at things.

“There’s different things like availability payments, innovative things around operation and maintenance, and other arrangements that can be put in place to provide that innovative thinking and better delivery.”

Availability charges refer to an arrangement where a private company is responsible for financing, operating and maintaining a road, and in return is paid a set charge over time by the government.

Mr Djite, a former footballer with Adelaide United, took the reins as Property Council SA executive director last week after a year and a half heading up the Committee for Adelaide.

With CBD office vacancies sitting at a six-year high of 16.1 per cent, and more city-based workers choosing to work from home, Mr Djite said reactivating the CBD was a key issue facing the industry.

With the state government in the process of rewriting the city’s 30-year plan, he wants to see a greater push for population growth in the CBD and for more housing in the city and inner suburbs.

“We’ve got to reimagine the CBD and especially in Adelaide we need to densify where people live – businesses within the CBD should be more than economically viable as a result of residents’ spending alone,” he said.

“We need more infill development. Look at Bowden. Notwithstanding the time it has taken to build out the site, it is a great example of what is required, and with the West End brewery site I’m hoping to see a lot of residential and a mixed-use precinct being developed there.

“When you get well-planned infill you get vibrancy, you get good economic, social, cultural and community growth and outcomes, you get economies of scale – it’s just better all round economically.”

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscrib ... our=append

why? how does that improve anyone's lifestyle?

[Nort]

Article in today's Advertiser about tolls for N-S Motorway. If anyone has access can they please share the article?

Property Council SA’s Bruce Djite recommends North-South corridor toll

Would a toll road fast-track the final stage of the North-South Corridor? New Property Council boss Bruce Djite thinks it’s time to debate the idea.
Giuseppe Tauriello

@gtauriello
4 min read
February 10, 2023 - 4:00PM

Bold thinking, starting with a proper debate about the merits of using a toll road to fast-track the final stage of the North-South corridor, is what the state needs to flourish amid the current economic malaise, according to new Property Council SA boss Bruce Djite.

In his first interview since starting his new job last week, Mr Djite has challenged the state government to think outside the square as it faces a global war for talent in the aftermath of Covid.

Mr Djite said there were key areas where strong leadership from the state government was needed, including on the contentious Torrens to Darlington road project and on reining in Adelaide’s urban sprawl.

Delays and redesigns have blown out the cost of T2D to $15.4bn, and Mr Djite said it was time to consider getting the private sector involved in order to make the project a reality.

“South Australia needs to elevate and have more mature conversations relating to infrastructure funding – it should not be taboo to say toll road here, because we’re talking about a $15bn road,” he said.

“Politically it’s hard to prosecute a toll road but we need leadership. A $700m hydrogen plan, merging the unis, LIV Golf are a few examples where we have seen leadership from government.

“But it should also be bipartisan, that’s how they do it. We have to make a choices. Do we want a complex economy, a knowledge economy, investing money in the best and brightest minds that are going to create economic value? Or do we want to spend $15bn on bitumen?”

Revised designs for T2D, revealed in December, came in at a cost of $15.4bn, up from the former Liberal government’s $9.9bn plan in 2021. The state government is in talks with the Commonwealth to top up its commitment and maintain a 50:50 funding split.

The state government has consistently ruled out implementing a user-pay system to finance the project, arguing motorists would avoid the toll road, thereby further congesting the surrounding road network.

Infrastructure and Transport Minister Tom Koutsantonis said the state government remained opposed to private-sector involvement in the T2D project, despite the budget blowout, worsening economic conditions and a tightening of the federal purse.

“The state Labor government has no intention to introduce toll roads on the North-South Corridor or anywhere else. They simply would not work for this project,” he said.

“Nor is the government exploring options for private-sector financing of the project – taxpayers pay taxes, in part, to fund essential motorways such as this one, and this will be a government-funded and delivered project.”

An opposition spokesman said it too was opposed to the use of toll roads in South Australia.

Staunch political opposition locally contrasts with the eastern seaboard, where states have used toll roads to fund a number of major road infrastructure projects.

The country’s largest toll road operator Transurban, which runs Melbourne’s CityLink, Brisbane’s Gateway Motorway and Sydney’s Westlink M7 Motorway, reported this week that a record number of motorists were using its Australian network, with more than 80 per cent of its customers spending less than $10 a week on tolls.

The company’s chief executive Scott Charlton said while toll roads may not necessarily be the answer in Adelaide, where there is less congestion than larger east-coast cities, there were other innovations the private sector could bring to major projects.

“Tolls in someplace like Adelaide, where the congestion is only for shorter periods of time, probably makes it difficult to support a road by itself,” he said.

“But I think getting the private sector involved in some capacity can always be a positive thing by getting innovation, getting a different way of looking at things.

“There’s different things like availability payments, innovative things around operation and maintenance, and other arrangements that can be put in place to provide that innovative thinking and better delivery.”

Availability charges refer to an arrangement where a private company is responsible for financing, operating and maintaining a road, and in return is paid a set charge over time by the government.

Mr Djite, a former footballer with Adelaide United, took the reins as Property Council SA executive director last week after a year and a half heading up the Committee for Adelaide.

With CBD office vacancies sitting at a six-year high of 16.1 per cent, and more city-based workers choosing to work from home, Mr Djite said reactivating the CBD was a key issue facing the industry.

With the state government in the process of rewriting the city’s 30-year plan, he wants to see a greater push for population growth in the CBD and for more housing in the city and inner suburbs.

“We’ve got to reimagine the CBD and especially in Adelaide we need to densify where people live – businesses within the CBD should be more than economically viable as a result of residents’ spending alone,” he said.

“We need more infill development. Look at Bowden. Notwithstanding the time it has taken to build out the site, it is a great example of what is required, and with the West End brewery site I’m hoping to see a lot of residential and a mixed-use precinct being developed there.

“When you get well-planned infill you get vibrancy, you get good economic, social, cultural and community growth and outcomes, you get economies of scale – it’s just better all round economically.”

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscrib ... our=append

why? how does that improve anyone's lifestyle?

Well planned densification is great. It allows for more walkable neighborhoods, more varied and sustainable local businesses, the population base to justify higher quality local infrastructure, and the lifestyle that comes with living in such a type of environment that many enjoy.

It also reduces the need to bloat out suburban sprawl, meaning that more of the people who live out on the fringes of the metropolitan area are there because they have chosen that location as best for them, not just because it's all they can afford. It can also mean larger blocks for those living in outer suburbs because they need to fit less housing.

[SBD]

An alternative model which will also take a decade or more to see a significant shift would be to encourage employers to establish in regional areas and outer suburbs.

The assumption of these land releases seem to be that most people still want to commute to the Adelaide CBD, and local employment is only the schools and shops to support the residential commuter population.

Instead, the focus could be on helping employers to establish and grow in other places, and make it easy for workers to choose to live near where they work. Since this is the N-S Motorway forum, I'll point out that if the employment could be closer to home, then more of the long distance traffic would be the freight carrying raw materials in and finished products out, instead of single-occupant vehicles going to an employer in the same place as every other employer.

[Nort]

An alternative model which will also take a decade or more to see a significant shift would be to encourage employers to establish in regional areas and outer suburbs.

The assumption of these land releases seem to be that most people still want to commute to the Adelaide CBD, and local employment is only the schools and shops to support the residential commuter population.

Instead, the focus could be on helping employers to establish and grow in other places, and make it easy for workers to choose to live near where they work. Since this is the N-S Motorway forum, I'll point out that if the employment could be closer to home, then more of the long distance traffic would be the freight carrying raw materials in and finished products out, instead of single-occupant vehicles going to an employer in the same place as every other employer.

Outside of boom areas though that never seems to really work in practice. If it's practical to commute from a location then people will.

[SBD]

An alternative model which will also take a decade or more to see a significant shift would be to encourage employers to establish in regional areas and outer suburbs.

The assumption of these land releases seem to be that most people still want to commute to the Adelaide CBD, and local employment is only the schools and shops to support the residential commuter population.

Instead, the focus could be on helping employers to establish and grow in other places, and make it easy for workers to choose to live near where they work. Since this is the N-S Motorway forum, I'll point out that if the employment could be closer to home, then more of the long distance traffic would be the freight carrying raw materials in and finished products out, instead of single-occupant vehicles going to an employer in the same place as every other employer.

Outside of boom areas though that never seems to really work in practice. If it's practical to commute from a location then people will.

That is true - so "if it is practical to commute" leads to the "induced demand" that people talk about. The government builds a nice new Northern Connector that gets people to the city quicker, so it becomes practical to commute there from living somewhere near Buckland Park, and lo and behold, a new suburb called Riverlea Park springs up.

Since there is a new development with potentially lots of new homes, the other way of using it is to provide incentives for employers to expand in that area. I don't know how much employment is provided by market gardens or the Dublin livestock market for example. There are warehouses and distribution centres in the Edinburgh and Penfield area, and also more land for new factories and other employers. There are higher tech employers in the Edinburgh and Elizabeth South area too. Lot 14 was built in the CBD, perhaps we need Lot 14A in the outer northern suburbs, Lot 14B in the outer South, and a few others in major regional towns/cities.

I've heard there is a severe shortage of rental housing on Yorke Peninsula. We no longer have a Housing Trust to build houses to meet and exceed that demand. Accommodation is needed before it is possible to recruit to expand employment. Nobody really wants to move to live in a temporary construction camp - permanent housing can lead to expanding the communities to support the Hillside Mine and Yorke Peninsula Renewable Energy Project (formerly Ceres wind farm proposal).

[abc]

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/subscrib ... our=append

why? how does that improve anyone's lifestyle?

Well planned densification is great. It allows for more walkable neighborhoods, more varied and sustainable local businesses, the population base to justify higher quality local infrastructure, and the lifestyle that comes with living in such a type of environment that many enjoy.

It also reduces the need to bloat out suburban sprawl, meaning that more of the people who live out on the fringes of the metropolitan area are there because they have chosen that location as best for them, not just because it's all they can afford. It can also mean larger blocks for those living in outer suburbs because they need to fit less housing.

its only great for developers who can maximise their profits when there is artificially limited available land

as someone else implied...the 'city of Adelaide' is no longer a destination for most of the metro area... I've seen it first hand...even the peak hour (which was really about 20 minutes) that existed 20 years ago has shrunk since COVID and the work from home 'revolution'

it would be extremely ironic if the great reset over the long term achieved the opposite of what was intended and decentralised populations rather than crammed people into car-less '15 minute city' zones...however that depends on government making more land available which I won't hold my breath for.

[Saltwater]

Back on topic on the NSM, peak hour may have changed, but trust me on the inner west section through Mile End as I'm very close to it, and it's jammed from before 7am until well after 6pm on weekdays, and much of the weekend. Whether people work in the CBD or not is irrelevant because its largely people trying to move across town, large semi's included. Completing the sections north to Darlington and south to Brickworks was great, but it's just created one giant funnel through the remaining section.

[SBD]

Back on topic on the NSM, peak hour may have changed, but trust me on the inner west section through Mile End as I'm very close to it, and it's jammed from before 7am until well after 6pm on weekdays, and much of the weekend. Whether people work in the CBD or not is irrelevant because its largely people trying to move across town, large semi's included. Completing the sections north to Darlington and south to Brickworks was great, but it's just created one giant funnel through the remaining section.

Agreed - government policies and choices over the last decade or two have led to more people being able to access that traffic jam much faster than we used to be able to.

[Listy]

Some rough tollroad costs / revenue guesstimating for South Road.

Road Cost $10 billion
Annual loan interest (3%) $300 million
Annual maintenance (2%) $200 million
Annual Shareholder dividends / ROI (3%) $300 million
Total = $800 million per annum

Traffic volume (from DTI) 75,000 vehicles per day
lets assume 50,000 vehicles are making short trips (<10km) and 25,000 are making long trips (>10km)

So, to recover that $800 million annually, the toll operator is going to have to charge something in the vicinity of
$44 per long trip (>10km) and
$22 per short trip (<10km).

So anyone doing a round trip on a Toll based South road is looking at paying something like $45-$90 per day for the privilege

PS add about $10 per trip to those figures if the Toll operator also wants to slowly pay off the actual $10 billion at $100 million per year (ie over a 100 year period)

PPS Tollway owners are not silly, so usually these sorts of private / public infrastructure arrangements include clauses to ensure the private owner/operator always generates a constant ROI - so if no-one wants to use the road, the government (ie taxpayer) ends up paying an annual penalty fee.
This in turn can create perverse incentives that encourage the Toll operator to *discourage* the use of their asset - by reducing maintenance to the absolute barest minimum the Toll operator can save money upfront, and then they can use the reduced quality of the road to justify actions that discourage use of their Tollway (ie lowering speed limits, blocking lanes for months on end etc). As Toll revenue drops, the penalty clause kicks in and the Toll operator gets a nice payout from the government/taxpayer for doing the exact opposite of what they are supposed to be doing.

[ChillyPhilly]

Hypothetically speaking, why would a private toll operator even be considered? Surely the State Government just runs it.