[U/C] 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

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normh
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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1291 Post by normh » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:31 am

BSK wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:32 pm
CDJ wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:56 am
PANS-OPS isn't the limiting surface in that location - the RTCC is the airspace limit for most of the eastern half of the CBD. The RTCC exactly matches the tallest antenna on Westpac (182.9m AHD or approx 136m above ground). Approval is required to breach the RTCC for any amount of time. I assume Adelaidean needs a lot more than 1m crane clearance to build the top levels, so they must have an approval to breach the RTCC.
Crane is currently at it's limit. However, to my understanding, the jib of the crane currently isn't high enough to hoist and erect the pre-cast concrete panels for the final level. They will most likely have to add another section to jump the crane that little bit higher. Knowing Samaras, whether he seeks approval is another story (pun intended).
Hi, I have not been able to find the "aviation" section for this development but I did find the DAC document for REALM Adelaide, it would appear there are no permits available to allow any crane to penetrate RTCC for any length of time.

4.3 Building Height in Relation to Radar Terrain Clearance Chart (RTCC).
Airservices has established a RTCC above the Adelaide CBD to a height of 182.8m AHD. A building to a height of 175.48m AHD is 7.32m beneath the RTCC surface. No temporary penetration by a construction crane is permitted into the RTCC.

Full information can be found here https://www.dac.sa.gov.au/__data/assets ... s_-_3d.pdf

I found it quite helpful in understanding a lot of this stuff. It made it quite clear to me that due to the RTCC the Adelaide CBD will never see a building height greater than what we currently have/getting. Unless aircraft requirements in the future change and they lift the RTCC (or move the Airport to Two Wells) :lol:

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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1292 Post by jackfire » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:24 pm

One floor to go.
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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1293 Post by CDJ » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:49 pm

normh wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:31 am
BSK wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:32 pm
CDJ wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:56 am
PANS-OPS isn't the limiting surface in that location - the RTCC is the airspace limit for most of the eastern half of the CBD. The RTCC exactly matches the tallest antenna on Westpac (182.9m AHD or approx 136m above ground). Approval is required to breach the RTCC for any amount of time. I assume Adelaidean needs a lot more than 1m crane clearance to build the top levels, so they must have an approval to breach the RTCC.
Crane is currently at it's limit. However, to my understanding, the jib of the crane currently isn't high enough to hoist and erect the pre-cast concrete panels for the final level. They will most likely have to add another section to jump the crane that little bit higher. Knowing Samaras, whether he seeks approval is another story (pun intended).
Hi, I have not been able to find the "aviation" section for this development but I did find the DAC document for REALM Adelaide, it would appear there are no permits available to allow any crane to penetrate RTCC for any length of time.

4.3 Building Height in Relation to Radar Terrain Clearance Chart (RTCC).
Airservices has established a RTCC above the Adelaide CBD to a height of 182.8m AHD. A building to a height of 175.48m AHD is 7.32m beneath the RTCC surface. No temporary penetration by a construction crane is permitted into the RTCC.

Full information can be found here https://www.dac.sa.gov.au/__data/assets ... s_-_3d.pdf

I found it quite helpful in understanding a lot of this stuff. It made it quite clear to me that due to the RTCC the Adelaide CBD will never see a building height greater than what we currently have/getting. Unless aircraft requirements in the future change and they lift the RTCC (or move the Airport to Two Wells) :lol:

cheers
Many thanks to you normh for the info you provided - this is really valuable. I've been trying to find the airspace study for Realm. It is interesting that the report indicates that AAL specifically blocked any application to temporarily breach RTCC/PANS-OPS. Firstly, they don,t have the authority to do this. Secondly this is not aligned with interstate precedent. It will be interesting to see how the final levels of Realm and Adelaidean are constructed as 7m isn't enough height for a crane to clear the roof structure. Around 17m minimum is required for hammerhead.

In reality, airlines and other aircraft operators don't use the RTCC in proximity to the CBD - it is a legacy surface which serves no purpose but is currently constraining development height for all of the eastern half of the city. Change is inevitable.

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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1294 Post by Llessur2002 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:52 pm

From outside the Schultz building on the UoA campus this afternoon...

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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1295 Post by ChillyPhilly » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:18 am

CDJ wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:49 pm
normh wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:31 am
BSK wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:32 pm


Crane is currently at it's limit. However, to my understanding, the jib of the crane currently isn't high enough to hoist and erect the pre-cast concrete panels for the final level. They will most likely have to add another section to jump the crane that little bit higher. Knowing Samaras, whether he seeks approval is another story (pun intended).
Hi, I have not been able to find the "aviation" section for this development but I did find the DAC document for REALM Adelaide, it would appear there are no permits available to allow any crane to penetrate RTCC for any length of time.

4.3 Building Height in Relation to Radar Terrain Clearance Chart (RTCC).
Airservices has established a RTCC above the Adelaide CBD to a height of 182.8m AHD. A building to a height of 175.48m AHD is 7.32m beneath the RTCC surface. No temporary penetration by a construction crane is permitted into the RTCC.

Full information can be found here https://www.dac.sa.gov.au/__data/assets ... s_-_3d.pdf

I found it quite helpful in understanding a lot of this stuff. It made it quite clear to me that due to the RTCC the Adelaide CBD will never see a building height greater than what we currently have/getting. Unless aircraft requirements in the future change and they lift the RTCC (or move the Airport to Two Wells) :lol:

cheers
Many thanks to you normh for the info you provided - this is really valuable. I've been trying to find the airspace study for Realm. It is interesting that the report indicates that AAL specifically blocked any application to temporarily breach RTCC/PANS-OPS. Firstly, they don,t have the authority to do this. Secondly this is not aligned with interstate precedent. It will be interesting to see how the final levels of Realm and Adelaidean are constructed as 7m isn't enough height for a crane to clear the roof structure. Around 17m minimum is required for hammerhead.

In reality, airlines and other aircraft operators don't use the RTCC in proximity to the CBD - it is a legacy surface which serves no purpose but is currently constraining development height for all of the eastern half of the city. Change is inevitable.
The RTCC/PANS-OPS exists to protect planes should they need to use an emergency flight path - which happens to be right above the CBD.
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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1296 Post by Mr Smith » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:47 pm

Re RTCC.

Was the then Bank SA tower when constructed in the late 80's built to the RTCC ceiling, or was RTCC increased at that time to accommodate the tower?

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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1297 Post by Patty605 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:33 pm

Taken from outside the Mantra on Frome.
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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1298 Post by Patty605 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:40 pm

Taken from the 6th floor balcony of the Mantra on Frome. Great view of it from here.
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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1299 Post by Mpol03 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:05 pm

If only it was a little more reflective.

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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1300 Post by normh » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:39 pm

Patty605 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:40 pm
Taken from the 6th floor balcony of the Mantra on Frome. Great view of it from here.
In the photo it appears as if I can see daylight through those 2 sections without glass. Does that mean what ever facilities they have on these levels will be in a wind tunnel?

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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1301 Post by BSK » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:17 am

normh wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:39 pm
In the photo it appears as if I can see daylight through those 2 sections without glass. Does that mean what ever facilities they have on these levels will be in a wind tunnel?
There is 1.8m high glass balustrade to be installed on levels 10 and 21, eventually.

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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1302 Post by CDJ » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:04 am

Mr Smith wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:47 pm
Re RTCC.

Was the then Bank SA tower when constructed in the late 80's built to the RTCC ceiling, or was RTCC increased at that time to accommodate the tower?
The RTCC was lifted to match with the height of the State Bank (Westpac) building. The current RTCC zone corresponding to the centre of the CBD exactly matches the top of the highest antenna on Wespac. The RTCC is intended to identify high obstacles (such as mountains etc) so aircraft can navigate over/around them. It is not intended to be a constraint on development. So if a taller building is constructed in the CBD, in theory the RTCC should lifted to reflect this.

In proximity to Adelaide Airport, aircraft use landing procedures which don't use the RTCC. If the sector of the RTCC which currently constrains development in the eastern half of the CBD were lifted, this would have no practical impact on airlines or other aircraft operators. It would however unlock massive development potential which would in turn boost business for Adelaide Airport and the airlines.

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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1303 Post by CDJ » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:09 am

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:18 am

The RTCC/PANS-OPS exists to protect planes should they need to use an emergency flight path - which happens to be right above the CBD.
This is partially correct. Some of the PANS-OPS surfaces over the CBD relate to emergency circling procedures (missed approach). These procedures could be safely adjusted to allow greater building height in the CBD with essentially no impact on airport operations. The RTCC doesn't relate to these procedures and is essentially not used in proximity to Adelaide Airport.

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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1304 Post by BSK » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:37 am

A couple of photos from Level 31 North West balcony.

20191021_070918_resized.jpg
20191021_070910_resized.jpg
20191021_070902_resized.jpg

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[U/C] Re: 11 Frome Street | 135m | 37 Levels | Crowne Plaza / Adelaidean | New tallest

#1305 Post by Maximus » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:44 am

CDJ wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:49 pm
Many thanks to you normh for the info you provided - this is really valuable. I've been trying to find the airspace study for Realm. It is interesting that the report indicates that AAL specifically blocked any application to temporarily breach RTCC/PANS-OPS. Firstly, they don,t have the authority to do this. Secondly this is not aligned with interstate precedent.
I read this as simply a case of poor wording. The protection of airspace regulations require the Secretary of the Department of Infrastructure to "have regard to" the opinion of the airport operator company (and CASA and Airservices, etc) in relation to penetrations of the PANS-OPS. In reality, the Secretary would be highly unlikely to make a decision contrary to these opinions, and the airport would also be highly unlikely to express an opinion contrary to CASA or Airservices. So, in practical terms, the airport almost does have the authority to 'block' applications.

Not quite sure about interstate precedent, but suggest you have a look at Skytower in Brisbane and building heights in the Brisbane CBD more generally. Brisbane Airport and Brisbane City Council have been at loggerheads for a number of years now over raising the maximum permissible height of buildings (currently 275m, I think). The airport doesn't support any increase in building heights.
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