News & Discussion: Trams

[skyliner]

To fail to plan is to plan to fail. Adelaide's transport and water systems are a textbook case of this.

Exactly. What you reap you sow. However I believe the tram extension smacked of the vcisionary (and I have told the correct authorities so). But the vision needs a longer timeframe and an all encompassing transport vision to avoid patchwork solutions that are usually far too late.

I hate to admit it, but Afelaide suffers from very slow action about development most of thet time. All the large scale moaning and groaning that we hear ends up putting us further back. An old quaint city suffering from sluggish movement is not what we want for the future. I say learn from other places and get on with it. The tramline success so far is enough. Ensuing expansion problems can be solved.

Bring it all on for a bigger and better city.

ADELAIDE - TOWARDS A GREATER CITY SKYLINE

[jk1237]

its all good to have visions, but if you dont have the funds, the visions are worthless. Theres one big difference between Perth and Adelaide, the WA is rolling around in money, we aren't
As for long enough tram platforms, go to Melbourne. With that logic, Melbourne would need to have platforms that extend all the way from 1 stop to the next the trams simply wait their turn, as buses do at stops it the city . Our platforms are long enough to fit an extra section for the flexities, so thats not a lack of vision at all.

The Glenelg tramline extension is the best example of vision we have had in this city for 20+ years. It connects our 3 modes of public transport together, the Glenelg tram, the trains, and every single bus route, and it gets passengers from Glenelg closer to their destination, making it far more attractive. Proof is in the pudding. I happened to go on the tram from rundle Mall to vic square today, the amount of people and tourists and buzz on the trams and around town today was great. If we happen to get billions from mining royalties soon, then we can implement proposals such as railway electrification, and extension of city west tram along the Outer Harbor corridor, and Noarlunga line extension. When they noticed the Outer Harbor tracks were bad a few years ago, they resleepered them. Its gonna now happen on the Noarlunga line. Thats not bad planning. We just happen to have a state govt thats not wealthy, so unfortunately we can only afford to improve things when they get to their all-time low. Unless we borrow lots, we cant change that.

and theres no way you can plan for a drought of this magnitude in 1 year. Our reservoirs are still at good capacity.

[rubberman]

"its all good to have visions, but if you dont have the funds, the visions are worthless."

Part of the standard professional planning process takes that into account. You start off with your wish list, cost it, then trim the wish list to suit your budget. Then you can align your proposed works with that budget, plan ways for increasing the cash flow if needed. For example, if SA Water had planned, it could have said ten years ago: we need a new facility to cater for Adelaide's growing population by 2007. If they had said that, they could have started the design and environmental approval processes (at little cost) and started to ramp up water prices to pay, and the desal plant would be built by now. They have the money to build it - or they are going to get it by increasing water prices (nothing is free), so the past couple of years of water restrictions boil down to a lack of planning, not a lack of money or the drought, or global warming, bad luck, God's punishment etc etc (add usual excuses here).

From the trains point of view, if you haven't got enough money for resleepering, you haven't got enough money for a train system, period. However, like I said, if they had a plan, they would have known that they needed sleepers when the factories in Katherine and Tennant Creek were operating, and they would have saved money, and the present trains would not be derailing, nor would there be speed restrictions. Like I said - no planning.

As for the Melbourne tram stops. If you have stops long enough, then three or four trams can unload at once, and when the lights change, they all move off together and clear the intersection. If you have stops long enough for one tram only, you get one tram over the intersection at a time since the next tram must stop to load and unload. Since this article is about growing the tram tracks, this is a serious impediment to multiple routes over King Wm St.

Also, if you have the Melbourne tram stops, you can run a bus along the line if the trams cannot run for some reason (an electrical outage for example) - the stops are on the same side as the bus doors. You cannot do that in Adelaide's city stops. Again, no planning, and lack of money was not an issue in the extension.

[rubberman]

and theres no way you can plan for a drought of this magnitude in 1 year. Our reservoirs are still at good capacity.

Sorry, I missed this.

Oh yes you can. SA Water's predecessor the EWS Department had specialist engineers who did this all the time. Why do you think that until very recently SA NEVER had water restrictions? Ever!

Further, the last piece of major supply augmentation in Adelaide was Little Para Dam in the late seventies. Blind Freddy could tell you that not increasing supply capacity for twenty five plus years while the city is growing is going to lead to water restrictions.

Oh, and something else I thought of.

At the moment, we are short of trams. If a couple of them fail mechanically, then we are in the p00p. If you could run buses along the tramline in the city, then you could run the shuttle service with them, leaving the rest of the line for the remainder of the flexitys. But because of the tram stop layout, you can't do this. So to avoid this, we need more trams to cover possible breakdowns (more cost - what was it you were saying about being able to afford things?) or just do without if there is a breakdown (pretty silly if a teensy bit of planning would have avoided it, eh?)

[jimmy_2486]

Another point to mention that blew my mnd is why they didnt put announcement boxes or screens at every tram stop to ensure that if there were to be delays in the city (derailment, accident), the people in the suburbs would know right away and could catch other forms of transport?

People would had been far less pissed off at the Adelaide Cup for example if they knew that a tram had derailed right away so they could had called a cab or caught a bus without waiting a friggin hour. Ive been left sitting at a tram stops for upto 45 minutes while shit loads of trains or buses go by to find out after that there was an incident in the city.

I mean trams arnt like buses.....if one goes down, another cannot just go around it....they are all pretty much screwed.

They knew that there would be teething problems, however they had, and still have, NO measures whatsoever to alleviate the severity of the risk of long delays?? Was an announcement system far too complex for SA to set up and handle?? Was is just far too expensive to put in screens or boxes that speak to us???? They actually expect us to use our mobile phones.....pathetic...

I am starting to really question the level of professionalism in the SA planning department. This is a simple thing that I (with no infrustructure planning experience) thought of so I dont understand why a "so called professional" body could not incorperate this into the system.

Anyways......thats my bitch.

[skyliner]

And in summary, there we have it, Vision and planning must take place with related trategies - all at little relative cost. (what you sow, you reap).

ADELAIDE - CITY ON THE MOVE

[Will409]

Atleast with things like PIDs and enunciators can be retrofitted to the shelters so it isn't the end of the world.

[jk1237]

rubberman, you cant really put the melb style safety zone stops in King William St, as they are too dangerous and no wheelchair access. If you did a Melb style superstop on the outside of the line, another lane of King Willliam St would be lost. I find nothing wrong with the platforms at all, but i do agree that info screens should be fitted.

As for the drought, we are experiencing one of the worst droughts in 100 years, however our reservoirs are still over 70% full arent they. I call that good planning, that we have been able to withstand a drought like this. Every city in the world has water restrictions in times of drought. We've never had water restrictions as we are very lucky to rely on the Murray. No other city in Aust has that bonus. Brisbane has been on the next level restriction above us for over a year.

I still have faith in our planning departments. Perth experienced a major shortage of trains after the success of the northern line, and after they realised, they made more. Which will happen here with our trams, theres already talk. There are still a few H trams if 2-3 flexis have mechanical problems, so I wouldnt worry your head off. Jimmy, I dont think any tram system in the world has 10 min solutions to alleviate a tram in the way if it breakdowns. There are 2 switches/points on the new extension that were planned to help this - 1 at Vic square, and 1 just north of Rundle Mall stop. I havent heard of any recent problems, so have a bit of faith please.

[AtD]

rubberman, you cant really put the melb style safety zone stops in King William St, as they are too dangerous and no wheelchair access. If you did a Melb style superstop on the outside of the line, another lane of King Willliam St would be lost. I find nothing wrong with the platforms at all, but i do agree that info screens should be fitted.

Southern King William Street has angle parking on both sides, so platforms can be installed without the loss of traffic lanes.

[jimmy_2486]

Jimmy, I dont think any tram system in the world has 10 min solutions to alleviate a tram in the way if it breakdowns. There are 2 switches/points on the new extension that were planned to help this - 1 at Vic square, and 1 just north of Rundle Mall stop. I havent heard of any recent problems, so have a bit of faith please.

I think u miss my point jk1237... Its not the tram incedences that im talking about.... its the poor suburban commuters that have no idea whats goin on until an hour later when a tram rocks up and says "sorry there was an incident".
This is actually what annoys people the most. If commuters had live feeds on the trams and were informed when there was an incident, then instead of commuters twiddling their thumbs for ages at the stop, they could had hoped on a cab/bus/train to where they were going.

Basically what im saying is that I think every tram stop should be equipped with a live tv broadcast of tram data with ETA's and all incedents put up on screen.

Not too much to ask for is it????

[jk1237]

rubberman, you cant really put the melb style safety zone stops in King William St, as they are too dangerous and no wheelchair access. If you did a Melb style superstop on the outside of the line, another lane of King Willliam St would be lost. I find nothing wrong with the platforms at all, but i do agree that info screens should be fitted.

Southern King William Street has angle parking on both sides, so platforms can be installed without the loss of traffic lanes.

thats true, southern King Wiliam St can handle superstops on the outside of the tracks. Northern King Wil did have to do inside platforms though.

Jimmy, I dont think any tram system in the world has 10 min solutions to alleviate a tram in the way if it breakdowns. There are 2 switches/points on the new extension that were planned to help this - 1 at Vic square, and 1 just north of Rundle Mall stop. I havent heard of any recent problems, so have a bit of faith please.

I think u miss my point jk1237... Its not the tram incedences that im talking about.... its the poor suburban commuters that have no idea whats goin on until an hour later when a tram rocks up and says "sorry there was an incident".
This is actually what annoys people the most. If commuters had live feeds on the trams and were informed when there was an incident, then instead of commuters twiddling their thumbs for ages at the stop, they could had hoped on a cab/bus/train to where they were going.

Basically what im saying is that I think every tram stop should be equipped with a live tv broadcast of tram data with ETA's and all incedents put up on screen.

Not too much to ask for is it????

well i do agree, info/timetable screens are needed

[Norman]

Jimmy, they're not TV screens, they are simple LED displays... something like a Smart Stop.

[jimmy_2486]

Well, what ever they are, put the damn things there.... lol.

Even the trains have live feeds at some stations.....however I think every station should have one.

[rubberman]

JK

You say that King Wm St can't fit the Melbourne style stops. First if Swanston Street can fit them King William St can. Second, Adelaide had those type of stops till 1958 in King William St. Third, if the stops are on the outside and the tram tracks are closer together, the actual difference in room taken up is diddley squat. Fourth disabled access and vehicle lane standards are the same across Australia - if Melbourne can do it, so can we.

You say that Adelaide does not have water restrictions. I'd check that if I were you.
You say that Adelaide's reservoirs are 70% full. That's true, but that 70% is not a big amount when you consider how much gets sucked out each year by customers. (70% of a small overall total is still a relatively small buffer).
You say that this is a 100 year drought. That is exactly what they should have planned for - and obviously didn't. We have been here for over 100 years now, so planning on that horizon should be a given.
You say that all cities in the world that have droughts have water restrictions. I'd check that if I were you. Cities that plan their infrastructure do not need to have restrictions. There is a great big ocean out there - you can desalinate as much water as you want to pay for if you live on the coast. If the desal plant had been built five years ago, we would not need restrictions.

Finally, back to the tram stops. Perhaps Adelaide knows something that other cities do not. How many other cities with streets either narrower or wider than ours have those centre stops in the middle of streets. Just about everywhere else uses the Melbourne style of stop. For good reason.

I don't have a problem if Adelaide comes up with an idea that is an improvement - but those centre island stops are inane. However, they are in, so no use complaining - rather a pointer to the need for better planning in future.

[Shuz]

I prefer Adelaide's stops to Melbournes. It terrifies me that some of their trams don't even have an adequate stop to load/unload onto and their is little or no safety held in regard to passengers. Whats 'insane' is the fact that Melbourne trams just stop in the middle of the road and people just start getting off onto oncoming traffic. Theres good reason Adelaide has centre stops, its for safety reasons because of King William Street being wide. In a narrower street, like Jetty Road - where side platforms are more viable, it is much safer again.