[COM] Victoria Square Upgrade - $24m

[mattblack]

Winners of the comp announced

http://www.adelaidecitycouncil.com/scri ... =PC_151037

I think they actually got it right, now let hope they pull thier fingers out.

Cheers

[skyliner]

My husband and I were talking about this too. It's a bit of a worry. My hubby says many more people living on the southern end of KWS are needed - people for whom the square would be part of their route to and fro, and their backyard too.
Caroline

It's a good point. Vic Sq may be the geographical centre of the city but demographically it is on the fringe right now.

Spot on! Through traffic volume will greatly enhance VSQ being developed as businessmen will see a dollar or two to be made as well as others who see demand for the product of VSQ. As it is the square is on the demographic edge of such movement. (Bring on KWS Sth dev't!!)

BTW - can't stand that Tarndangyangga name - carries no clout in the name - no engendered thought streams with associations. At least VSQ carries that grand colonial 'majesty' about it with linked importance. No sling off at the aboriginals intended I might add.

ADELAIDE - TOWARDS A GREATER CITY SKYLINE

[Queen Anne]

My husband and I were talking about this too. It's a bit of a worry. My hubby says many more people living on the southern end of KWS are needed - people for whom the square would be part of their route to and fro, and their backyard too.
Caroline

It's a good point. Vic Sq may be the geographical centre of the city but demographically it is on the fringe right now.

Spot on! Through traffic volume will greatly enhance VSQ being developed as businessmen will see a dollar or two to be made as well as others who see demand for the product of VSQ. As it is the square is on the demographic edge of such movement. (Bring on KWS Sth dev't!!)

ADELAIDE - TOWARDS A GREATER CITY SKYLINE

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you Skyliner, but I just wanted to clarify that hubby and I (that would be Prince George ) meant a higher thru "traffic" of pedestrians and not car traffic. We were thinking that more people living locally in the area near the square and walking to work, etc, through the square, could help address the fact that Vic Square is, too often, on the fringes of our movement patterns and our thoughts as we whiz through it in our cars.

Imo, the best outcome would be closing the square to motor traffic, or - as PPS sometimes does - experimenting with closures to see how it goes and what compromises can be made regarding the pedestrian/car debate. I notice that Rex Jory (one of the public competition judges) commented that the car has been setting the agenda for our planning decisions for the last several decades and "something's got to be done about it" I agree with him on this one - Vic Square has been turned into a traffic island, as he said.

[Shuz]

I think the ESD019 is the more logical approach, but with one modification, to close the Grote/Wakefield traffic access.

[Prince George]

I think the ESD019 is the more logical approach, but with one modification, to close the Grote/Wakefield traffic access.

Once you've closed Grote/Wakefield, why would you build ESD019's central bridge structure?

[Gazeby]

IMO, im all for minimizing car numbers around the square, but i feel as though that is happening already just by human natures response to climate change. Im a frequent tram traveller and i stop off at sth terrace and walk into Vic Sq where i work. and i have noticed the large number of people walking, riding and taking public transport and thus the number of cars travelling through the square has dropped. Hence IMO a study should take place into the effect of either closing one side off and directing traffic down one side or having a combination of public transport access one side and private the other and narrowing the road by taking out one of the lanes both sides. IMO Closing total access to the square could be a disadvantage....Victoria Sq doesnt lend itself to being a Square like the examples in European countries, its not the lifestyle in this city square that will respond well. WE still need to consider Emergency vehicle access. how does valet parking work at the hilton if we closed off access etc. We suggest Vic Sq is a traffic Island and no one goes there cuz its too dangerous to cross, i for one am gods witness that people do get across there ( i mean how do they get on the tram) however its the pedestrians unlikeable manner in which they cross is what puts them in danger, ie J-walking and running on red lights. However they do make it across the reason why there isnt anyone in there is becasue its a large space to fill and there is nothing in there to do, we need to break it down into smaller squares and create places of interest to visit like cafes, shops, internet cafes, and encourage more green initiatives like bike storage. Its like the old theory where its hard to make a big room look full with the same number of people making a small room look full. Victoria Sq is a room lets fill it up with people and activities.

[Wayno]

re. traffic thru VSQ, i like the PPS approach (as mentioned by queen-anne). Let's block it off temporarily and monitor revised traffic flow behaviour...might not be a big deal at all!

[Gazeby]

It will certaintly answer some questions. It definately needs to be a study over a long period of time. So people can adapt to change.....a case of "Who moved my Cheese"

[Norman]

The centre lane of Victoria Square has been blocked off before... how did that go?

[davideoeo]

Having lived overseas for 10 years I can't believe the blocking of roads through Victoria Sq is even being debated. Most of the most charming cities in Europe identify their centre and banish cars in favour of bikes, trams and pedestrians. The best European cities are littered with interesting squares, many of them have a very discrete car park or under pass beneath them. Adelaide looks like it has been shredded by roads destroying any pedestrian interest. If it is so important to drive through a city you are not utilising the city correctly.

[rhino]

As has been mentioned before, Australian cities are relatively new, in a world sense, and are far more similar to North American cities than European cities. I'm not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, just that there is a difference, and if our city's designers are looking at North America for inspiration (as it seems they are) then pointing out how a city like Copenhagen or Paris works might be regarded as irrelevant. We need to work out whether we want a quaint olde-worlde European-style city where people walk or ride their bikes and read books in parks and drink lattes at streetside cafes or a business and commercial centre full of hi-rises and fast pace. We seem to have people on this board from both schools of thought.

[SRW]

We need to work out whether we want a quaint olde-worlde European-style city where people walk or ride their bikes and read books in parks and drink lattes at streetside cafes or a business and commercial centre full of hi-rises and fast pace. We seem to have people on this board from both schools of thought.

You seem to suggest that the two are incompatible. There's no reason we can't mix the best of both worlds.

[Düsseldorfer]

We need to work out whether we want a quaint olde-worlde European-style city where people walk or ride their bikes and read books in parks and drink lattes at streetside cafes or a business and commercial centre full of hi-rises and fast pace. We seem to have people on this board from both schools of thought.

You seem to suggest that the two are incompatible. There's no reason we can't mix the best of both worlds.

for the best of both worlds just look at Frankfurt Am Main

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_am_main

[rhino]

for the best of both worlds just look at Frankfurt Am Main

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_am_main

While I can see a good mix of old and new architecture in Frankfurt, I don't see the pedestrian-fiendly CBD that Davideoeo is talking about. Seems to be heaps of traffic on still-open roads in this view

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ntower.jpg

[Prince George]

Gazeby, I don't think that anyone has seriously suggested removing all traffic from the area. If I thought that we could turn Vic Square into Salamanca's Plaza Mayor, I would be all over that idea, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. What we are contending is that the multiple lanes of traffic surrounding the square are like a moat - yes, you can cross it, but it seems to have been made deliberately hard. Even if we had a fabulous attractive square that people wanted to be in, there remains this barrier around it making it difficult to get to and adding noise and fumes. I honestly can't think of a really good square or park anywhere that is surrounded by the amount of traffic that Vic Square has, and likewise for the traffic through the centre.

Some people have commented that perhaps comparisons to old Europe are unfair and that we should look at American cities instead. Well, American cities are also looking at the sorts of changes that we're talking about here. For example, in Brooklyn there is Prospect Park that has had several streets running through it (a product of the Robert Moses era). The streets are currently closed to traffic except at peak hour; the community want it permanently closed. One youth-group delivered 10,000 letters on that subject to Mayor Bloomberg http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/09/16/y ... pect-park/. What we are at risk of is becoming even more dated than America.

The centre of the square was closed, and I think some of the lanes around the edge too, during one of the Adelaide festivals (2002?). I am certain that the emergency vehicles and regular traffic were able to negotiate the changes - if there were any problems, you can be sure the Grote St Business Precinct would be waving that around as a reason it must remain open. But sometimes people don't connect what happens during a Festival with what could happen permamently, so a further experiment would be in order.

Studies of pedestrian traffic in Adelaide have shown that the principal flow in the area runs along the north-western corner of the square. That's not a surprise, it's the route that connects the markets to Rundle Mall. It's best to work with those forces, so the west would be the better side to close, retaining perhaps just a single north-bound access lane along the front of the Hilton up to Grote St. It is also a little unfortunate that the tramlines run along the western edge of the square; tramlines running through a park sounds less than ideal, it would be good to move the lines to the eastern side.